Hooper Debate 6 - Questions About Purgatory

PURGATORY

Matthew 12:32: And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age [world] or in the age [world] to come. (Some sins can therefore be forgiven after death.)

HOOPER: Again, private interpretation. Go back one more verse. (31) "Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." How do you get that there will be "some sins can be forgiven after death?" You just called Jesus a liar, for Jesus said ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE FORGIVEN.." There's only ONE exception.....except those who blaspheme against that Holy Ghost. No where in the Bible does it state that there are some sins that can be forgiven after death.

The implication here is clear and the fact that Jews during the time of Christ prayed for the dead makes it even more evident. There is nothing of private interpretation here. I am merely using verses to show how the Catholic Church's position is reasonable. Sin is only unforgivable if it is mortal and we die. The mystery of Purgatory is not about a second chance given to egregious sinners. It is about the saints who are perfected as they approach the throne of God. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to deny or to ridicule as demonic some action of God. If God has indeed showered his Holy Spirit upon the Church, then you yourself "might" be guilty of blaspheming divine intervention by attacking the Church and the work of the Spirit.

HOOPER: Produce the Scriptures, please. The Bible says, "....it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:' not a special time for forgiveness. (Heb. 9:27)

The Church also teaches that at death there is a particular judgment and at the consummation of all things, the final judgment. The Catholic teaching of purgation for some does not deny or threaten this truth. At the moment of death, some souls are directed to heaven and others to hell. All souls that undergo purgation are directed to heaven. Those in hell cannot be helped.

HOOPER: Matthew states, "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." It's clear there is only ONE sin that will not be forgiven in "THIS WORLD" and in the "WORLD TO COME."

The intimation is even clearer in the Greek. While you are certainly free to believe whatever you want, yours is the private interpretation while mine rests on the accepted doctrines of a Church safeguarded by the Holy Spirit for two thousand years.

HOOPER: Again, comparing Scripture with Scripture (without private interpretation), the "world" is described throughout the Old and New Testament as the coming Millennial reign of Christ, ON EARTH (Matt. 13:39; 13:49; 24:13; Mark 10:30), which will have literal rulers (Matt. 19) and literal transformations in nature (Isa. 11, Rom. 8).

So you are one of these fundamentalist millennialists I have heard about who believe in a thousand year reign of Christ. It is no wonder you disagree about the meaning of Christ's kingdom.

HOOPER: So the "this world" is at the time when Jesus was on the face of this earth, and the world to come is the next time He is on the face of this earth RULING for one thousand years. (See Rev. 20) But this isn't the end! This sin of blasphemy (often called the "unpardonable sin") is defined as SPEAKING. In Mark 3:30, the Holy Spirit defines what the unpardonable sin is. "Because they SAID, He hath an unclean spirit." (see vs. 30 and 31 together). So at the time Jesus is saying this, He says that sin will not be forgiven in THIS WORLD (at the time he was on the face of this earth), and in the WORLD to COME (the future Millennial Reign when He will be back on this earth.). So if somebody is to commit this sin, they would have to do it by SPEAKING, just as they did when He was here at the first Advent.

What you say here is so convoluted that I cannot make heads or tails of what you are saying. The sin is not speaking as such but speaking in a disparaging way about the work of the Spirit. If the hand of God is indeed operating in the Catholic Church-- in her proclamation, teachings, rituals and discipleship, then those who speak against her separate themselves from the saving grace which Christ bestows through the instrumentality of the Church. It is one thing to say, "I disagree," you go to the exterme of positing the demonic. You condemn the Church in language reminescent of the Pharisees and scribes who condemned the miraculous work of Jesus as the work of Be-elzebul.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15: . . . each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

HOOPER: This has nothing to do with the fanciful invention of purgatory. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, sins are not are judged, it's WORKS that are judged. Did you ever hear "good job" and "bad job?" Let's compare Scripture with Scripture.

Huh? But you said that we are saved by faith and not by works? You cannot have it both ways. Yes, our works are judged and we will receive our just reward. The message of purgation seems clear, ". . . though he himself will be save, but only as through fire."

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." - 1 Cor. 3:13-15

"....For we shall al stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Rom. 14:10)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10)

"Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water" (Num. 31:23).

HOOPER: This has nothing to do with "burning in a fictitious placed called purgatory. The person's salvation is not even in question (If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved)!

Actually, this is what purgatory is about. The person's salvation is not in question. Every person who endures purgation is already a saint. The poor souls are all destined for heaven. Did you think that they could go to hell? Are you thinking of purgatory as a kind of hell? This would be incorrect.

HOOPER: The fire never even touches him! Sir Jenkins, do you remember Lot? He was "saved by fire" i.e. the fire never touched him. In the context of Baptism, remember Noah and his family? Noah and his family were dry and stayed alive; it was the wet ones who died outside the protection of the ark. Note that what is being tested by fire are "works," not people! No person has to be purged by fire to be cleansed from sins. The purging of sins is done by blood not fire. (Heb. 1:3; 9:14)

The fire of God's love must touch us all. It does not burn the saints of heaven. It burns away within us that which does not belong to God. You confuse analogies with blood and fire and thus reckon together incorrectly purgation with salvation. I notice that you work hard to dismiss these verses, but really say nothing substantial about them.

2 Maccabees 12:45-46: (This is one of the Old Testament books omitted from the Protestant Bible). But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

HOOPER: The support for purgatory comes from the Apocrypha. It is not considered Scripture by both Bible Believing Christians and the Jewish people. It is also a fact that no serious Jew or born again Christian gave two cents worth of consideration about the Apocryphal books, only the Roman Catholic Church did, who added the books to the Bible by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.

Actually, the Orthodox also include the Catholic books and they broke away in schism in the 12th century. No, the Catholic collection of books constituted the legitimate Scriptures of the Christian world until the Protestant Reformation. The Old Testament canon had been accepted by the Church with no debate, from the earliest days.

HOOPER: The word "apocrypha" itself means, "not genuine; spurious; counterfeit," the definition of the word declares the nature of the books. For that matter, even Jesus doesn't recognize the Apocrypha. He never quoted it, never read it, never defended it, and never called it Scriptures.

Actually, the Septuagint, which included the Old Testament books accepted by Jesus is the version of the Scriptures quoted by Jesus and others in the New Testament writings. These books were in the Greek version of the Scriptures and the Gentile Church quickly embraced it as Holy Scripture. A first century Jewish rabbi edited the Old Testament books limiting the historical range, the Palestinian location, and insisting upon texts available in Hebrew. Given that the early Christians had embraced the larger Greek canon, the Jews who were persecuting them preferred distinct Scriptures from what they saw as a new sect, the Christian Church.

HOOPER: I can prove to you he only recognized the Hebrew Old Testament, written in Hebrew.

You prove nothing except your ignorance of both God's living Word and of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

HOOPER: The Hebrew Old Testament contains three sections. They are: the "Torah," the "Nabhim," and the "Kethubim."Each of these sections are called the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Psalms). The books contained in these three sections are: (The Torah) Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. (The Nabhim) Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Johan, Micah, Nahum, Zephaniah, Haggai, Habbakuk, Zechariah, and Malachi. (The Kethubim) Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and 1 and 2 Chronicles. This is the Canon of Scripture the Holy Spirit has fixed concerning the Old Testament.

Actually, there was some disagreement among the Jews about the Hebrew canon. A rabbi redactor would eliminate a number of books that belonged to the oldest copies of these Scriptures. The elimination of certain books from the Christian bible was not the work of the Holy Spirit but of the Protestant reformer, Martin Luther. He rejected First and Second Maccabees (historical books like 1 Kings and Chronicles), the latter because it supported the Catholic practice of praying for the dead. Wisdom and Sirach would be listed with Proverbs. Tobit is not unlike Job. Judith is another heroic woman like Esther. Baruch is prophecy like Jeremiah.

The Holy Spirit did indeed fix the canon, but with the Catholic books, and by the Catholic Church at the council of Hippo in 393 AD and again by Trent in 1546 AD.

HOOPER: Whenever Jesus referred to anything written, he was referring to those Scriptures.

Actually, whenever Jesus cites the Old Testament the text comes from the Greek Scriptures which included the Catholic books. The Bible for the apostolic community, particularly in the Gentile world where Paul preached, included the books that make up the Catholic Old Testament!

HOOPER: Now, over in Luke 24:44, Jesus makes His canonical statement when referring to those Scriptures, ".....all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the LAW of Moses, and in the PROPHETS, and in the PSALMS, concerning me." It is obvious Jesus had no use for the Roman Catholic Apocrypha.

There is no logic here at all and nothing obvious about such a rejection. There are many books that Jesus does not directly cite; however, we would not eliminate them from our bibles. You are playing games here and only the most gullible would buy it. How can you speak this way? Do you not fear God?

HOOPER: The inspiration of Scripture had ceased from the ending of Malachi until Matthew.

The inspiration of Scripture did not cease until the death of the last apostle, John. In any case, this would not be sufficient to eliminate all seven books. The elimination of Maccabbees was for somewhat arbitrary reasons and this decision was not decisive for everyone. It would be a part of the Christian bible until the Protestant reformation. Are you saying that there was no true bible for the first two-thirds of the Church's history? I do not think so.

HOOPER: During that time there were no prophets from God to declare His word. In fact, the book of Maccabees itself declares there were no prophets, and therefore the inspiration of Scripture had ceased.

It is not a prophetic book as such but is considered an historical one. There are other such books in the Old Testament as well. Distinctions need to be made.

HOOPER: It states, "There had not been such great distress in Israel since the time prophets ceased to appear among the people" (1 Maccabees 9:27). But then again, I can find this truth in the Scriptures. The prophets ceased with Zechariah. Jesus speaks of his death in Matthew 23:35 as closing the prophetic era (from righteous Abel to Zacharias), thus the four hundred silent years begin.

You are confusing prophecy with inspiration and revelation. They are not the same thing.

HOOPER: The canon of the Old Testament Scripture ends with the martyrdom of Zechariah. However, the teaching of purgatory is supposedly supported by 2 Maccabees 12:46, as you stated above. "It is holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins."

It is only one of many Scriptures cited. However, even if one should consider it as apocryphal and historical, as the Anglicans do, it would still show the mentality of the Jews close to our Lord's day regarding the dead and our prayers on their behalf.

HOOPER: This is interesting considering that the passage is in reference to those who were guilty of idolatry! "But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear (2 Macc. 12:40).

Yes, they seemed to be guilty of superstition. But the manner of sin does not change the fact that prayers were offered for them.

HOOPER: The men for whom prayer was offered had died because they were idolaters, and according to Roman Catholicism, idolatry is a mortal sin which would send them to Hell, not purgatory, but yet the verse is used to prove we are to pray for the dead to shorten their time and degrees of suffering in purgatory by using those guilty of idolatry!

Excuse me, where in Roman Catholicism do we say that all superstition is mortal sin? False worship or idolatry is indeed serious matter and the person who commits it could indeed be in mortal sin. However, as with so many superstitions, it is hard to know how thoroughly a person may have given himself to it. God judges. We pray for the dead. If they are in hell, then they cannot be helped. If they are not, then certainly superstition is a stain that must be purged from the soul. We pray but God is the one who perfects his children or punishes them.

HOOPER: The Apocrypha not only contradicts our God-given Scriptures, it contradicts itself. For example, in the two books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes dies three different deaths, and not in the same places!

And why are there two versions of creation in Genesis, one where Adam is made first and the second that speaks of the couple? The bible is not meant to be understood like a videotape on the news. You can find many apparent contradictions in the bible, although they do not diminish the truth value of God's Word.

HOOPER: The Bible mentions nothing about purgatory. Romans 6:23 says, "the wages of sin is death," not a limited time spent in purgatory.

The Scriptures listed here on its behalf is evidence that the bible is not silent about the mystery of purgatory.

HOOPER: In the Bible, the soul is cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ, when he is alive, not dead. Once death comes, then judgment, not an undefined limited time getting cleansed from sin or forgiveness of sins. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb. 9:27) Nowhere does Scripture say a person is cleansed by "purifying fire." Fire has to do with Hell.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

You repeat yourself. The Catholic Church teaches that judgment comes with death. If we are in mortal sin and have broken our friendship with God, then the condition of alienation is made permanent. Hell is real.

HOOPER: Rather, a person is cleansed by His BLOOD. "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). Furthermore, "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission" (Heb. 9:22). Thus, cleansing doesn't come by "purifying fire," but only by the "blood of Jesus Christ."

We are washed clean in the saving blood of Jesus. This is Catholic teaching, too. No one can be saved by prayers for the dead. The souls in purgatory are already saved. Purgatory simply recognizes that even among the friends of Christ, there may be some elements of resistence-- venial sin, bad habits, etc.

HOOPER: No sinner who accepts Jesus Christ as their Saviour will have to undergo any further purging.

Where is this in the bible?

HOOPER: Jesus said "It is FINISHED."

This refers to Christ's redemptive work. It is still left to us to accept or reject what he has done for us.

HOOPER: It is finished because Jesus already did the PURGING, "when he had by himself PURGED our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3).

No, you are confusing two different things. Jesus dies for the elect. He redeems us from the devil. We had been made subject to sin and death. Now we can accept Christ and his saving work in faith. This faith is realized in obedience and charity to Christ, not just in a verbal profession. The breech between heaven and hell is healed. Purgation is a question seen apart from salvation and damnation. There is no purging of the damned. Some of the saints, but not all, experience a purification or a perfection under the fire of God's love-- the completion of their transformation-- so that they may truly be perfect as Christ and his heavenly Father are perfect.

HOOPER: If you are a born again believer, your sins have been purged. If you are a born again believer and die, you will be in the presence of the Lord," To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8), not undergoing a man made purgatory fire!

Nothing is said here about the manner of justification, but I suspect that you mean by imputation and not by transformation. It is the height of egoism for people like yourself, so filled with enmity, to feel that you need no further cleansing prior to entering heaven. You would populate heaven with sinners only born again in a juridical way, but not really. Your very presence would reduce heaven to the resemblance of hell.

Revelation 21:27: Nothing defiled can enter Heaven.

HOOPER: Read, read, read. Why don't you quote the whole verse? "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev. 21:27)

I have no problem with the longer citation. The process of purification or perfection that begins in this life no doubt continues in the life to come. For some reason you seem to think that you are perfect already.

HOOPER: I don't know about you, but my name is written in the "book of life" (Phil. 4:3).

You have already said that I an unregenerated and thus damned and not in the book of life. You are presumptuous about many things.

HOOPER: The Bible reference you quote is to those who come out of the Tribulation and Millennium.

When Christ comes it will be for the consummation of all things. I do not subscribe to your picture of the end-times.

HOOPER: And the reason for that is because those who come in, come in to get what will give them eternal life (Rev. 22:14). They must eat from the "tree of life" to get eternal life. They finally obtain what was forbidden to Adam in Genesis 3:22-24. The Christians are already there, the church, the "Lamb's wife" (Rev. 21:9) and they already have eternal life, they don't need to eat from the "tree of life" (1 John 5:12). Thus, the passage refers to people on the earth in eternity who go into New Jerusalem to finally partake of the "tree of life." It's all right there in black and white if you'll take the time to read it and believe what you read.

Even my Protestant friends are shaking their heads about this. You must belong to the most fundamentalist branch of the Baptist church. Is it even Baptist? I do not know even what to say about all this. Purgation is not in reference to the tree of life or eternal life, but of perfection for those who would come into God's presence. At the consummation of all things, there will only be two realities: heaven and hell.

While many Protestant critics reject Purgatory because the word does not appear in the bible, the actual reason is that such a teaching would make their view of justification by faith alone untenable.

HOOPER: No, the reason why the Roman Catholic Church made up and introduced a place called Purgatory in the year 593 A.D. and declared it an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church at the Second Council of Lyons in 1274 A.D. is because they could not accept the fact that the Bible teaches that for anybody alive can have eternal salvation as as a free gift! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Eph. 2:8,9). "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 6:23).

Defining a truth of faith is not the same as inventing. First and Second Lyons, the Council of Florence, and later Trent all talk about it. Like the Jews, the early Christians prayed for the dead. This is an ancient practice. In addition to Second Maccabees, Jewish rabbis also interpreted Zechariah 13:9 in terms of purification in the afterlife (Shammai School): "I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested." I have already made reference to Matthew 12:32 and one might also cite Paul's prayer for Onesiphorus in 2 Timothy 1:18: "may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day". The ancient fathers of the Church are also clear about it: Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Ephram, Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, Caesarius of Arles and Gregory the Great.

This Catholic teaching sustains our understanding of intercessory prayer for the dead, meritorious works done in Christ in reparation for sin, the temporal punishment due to sin, and transformation over imputation in Christ. Our justification is not a mere juridical rendering from God, but the elect are made into a new creation. They are changed. Purgatory allows this transformation to come to completion. The Scriptures uphold such a teaching, despite the protestations of so-called bible-Christians.

HOOPER: I notice you cannot give scriptural proof text for your above statement. What you say is just what it is, "Catholic teaching," not "Bible teaching."

I have already given plenty of Scriptures. Although, Catholic hermeneutics allows for living Sacred Tradition as a source for doctrine. You may not accept this, but that is your losss. That is why any discussion or debate between a Catholic and the likes of you must always begin and end with the subject of the Church. Because we do not accept the other's starting points, and I would contend that yours is intellectually untenuable, we will always talk somewhat at cross-purposes.

HOOPER: Justification IS a judicial act of God whereby He declares the sinner to be righteous (Rom. 3:26). Even in the Book of Galatians Paul says, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Actually, Protestants like yourself do not hold that justification is a "judicial act" but rather what they call a "juridical" one. It is wrong still, but you should at least know what to call it. You have to be more careful what you copy from your anti-Catholic friends, in whatever books and leaflets you put on par with God's Word.

HOOPER: In this same Book it says, "And the scriptures, foreseeing that God would JUSTIFY the heathen THROUGH FAITH..." (Gal. 3:8) In this same Book it says, "But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" (Gal. 3:11; cf. Rom. 4:2, Gal. 2:16). Christ paid the full penalty for our sins, and those who are born again are completely justified. (Rom. 5:9, 5:18; Eph. 2:8,9; Rom. 3:24; Hebrews 9:26; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:20; Rom. 3:28; Rom. 5:1; Gal. 3:24, etc. etc.) Just because you are not sure about your eternal life and standing before God does not mean you must make everybody else unsure.

You offer circular arguments that repeat your assertions and misinterpret Scripture. Catholics believe in the bible, but to our ears, the meaning of Scripture is very different from yours. The postulating of a lot of verses gives the impression of erudition and understanding where you make no argument at all. It is like a child who thinks he can win an argument by yelling louder than his friends. These verses are not topical to a discussion about purgatory and prayer for the dead. Rather, we should be restricting ourselves to these matters of dispute:

Are the saints of heaven really made into new creations or is the justification merely imputed in a juridical (legal) manner?

Is it sufficient to dismiss the guilt of sinners in heaven without some remission of temporal punishment and the eradication of sinful inclinations?

If the prayers of the living have an effect in the purification of the righteous (not the damned) how is it so?

Do not the saints of heaven, on a metaphysical level (not just juridical), have to be made perfect and Christ and his heavenly Father are perfect?

You really make no attempt to answer these questions. You seem to be saying that the saints of heaven remain in their sins but are no longer held liable. If the least sin is offensive to God and cannot have any place in heaven, then it would seem that most people (in your scenerio) should go to hell. Purgatory, for Catholics is more a sign of God's mercy than of his justice. That which would otherwise be damned, is made perfect and given a place in the eternal kingdom.

HOOPER: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13) .

Yes, that is the rationale given by John and seems to imply that he was aware of his divinely inspired role.

The bible teaches that some sins are forgiven in the world to come, on the other side of death.

HOOPER: This has already been addressed.

Addressed, but not challenged.

We are not talking here about mortal sin that damns the soul. The Scriptures also indicate that some, although not all, are saved in the next world by fire. Literally the fire of God's love purifies his own and makes them ready for heaven.

HOOPER: Again, you have no Scriptures to confirm YOUR belief. Again, see comment above. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, sins are NOT addressed, it's his WORKS that are judged.

The Scriptures were given earlier in this discussion. Again, having said this I fault you for dismissing sacred tradition. You argue in a crippled fashion by cutting off an essential font of revelation to the Church. Once again, I think it is funny that you do mental gymnastics here to say that works are judged when you argue that only faith matters. You cannot have it both ways. Works, by the way, can be good, neutral or evil. In that sense, evil works can be counted as sins. Good works are counted as meritorious.

In addition, the value of intercessory prayer for the dead is advocated by the bible.

HOOPER: Where? I thought so. Only in the Apocrypha, but not in the Scriptures.

It is not the Apocrypha but the Deuterocanonical Book, 2 Maccabbees. It was only removed from the Christian bible after the fact, not prior to the argument about prayer for the dead and purgatory. Literally what happened was, your Protestant forebears of a few centuries ago censored the bible to substantiate their arguments.

Like a bride who wants to look her best before meeting her bridegroom, Purgatory allows us to undergo a cleansing or purgation of any residual stain-- venial sin, the temporal punishment due to sin, and the tendency (habit) to sin.

HOOPER: Scriptures say nothing about having to undergo a cleansing or purgation of any sin after death. It's already been done. Praise God!

How has it been done? You mean you never commit sin? You are not prone to rash judgment or anger? Do you not know bigotry against those who think differently than you? Are you free of all sins of the flesh?

HOOPER: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;" -Col. 2:13

A Catholic can know forgiveness as well, however, that does not mean that he has achieved spiritual perfection. We can fall back into serious sin, God forbid. We may also be plagued by lesser offenses, which are still offensive in God's sight.

HOOPER: "For by ONE offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." -Heb. 10:14

Yes, the redemptive work of Christ has been accomplished. Final sanctification requires that we run the race and receive the crown that awaits us on the other side of the grave. We are called to cooperate with Christ's work and his grace.

HOOPER: "But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God;" Hebrews 10:12

Yes, Jesus ascended to the Father and now sits at the right hand of God to judge the living and the dead. This is also Catholic doctrine. Jesus is the one high priest and he offers himself as a victim in the one sacrifice that heals the rift between God and man.

HOOPER: "In whom we HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of his grace;" -Eph. 1:7
Praise God!

Yes, we are redeemed through his blood, the immaculate Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Catholics say or sing this at every Mass. We know full well the meaning of his paschal sacrifice. It is Jesus that makes the forgiveness of sins possible. However, that is on the periphery of the given debate here.

HOOPER: When the jailer asked Paul and Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" they did not answer by saying, "Well, I hate to tell you this, but because Christ did not forgive all punishment for sin on the cross, chances are very high that you will end up in purgatory where there needs to be further purging of your sins by fire. You see, once you are saved by being sprinkled with Jericho water, you must pray so you won't spend a long time in the purgatory fire. You must pray to Mary, that's Jesus' mother, and pray for the dead so they can get out too. We are not yet sure how many prayers it will take, so be faithful to pray the rosary every day, and you must ask Mary to intercede for you. Also remember that you should abstain from eating meats on Fridays, go to a Catholic priest for confession on Saturdays, attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and make sure you fast one hour before Mass before you eat Jesus' body and blood. If you make the sign of the cross, you are granted an indulgence of three years. If you make the same holy sign with blessed water, you may gain an indulgence of seven years.[2] Oh! Indulgences are also granted for visits of the faithful to various Catholic shrines. Don't forget to pray for the pope while you are at it. If you are faithful in all I say and the many things I tell you in the future, under proper conditions, indulgences will also be applied to the dead in purgatory for the reduction of the degree of suffering and the length of time it must be endured. Don't forget that you can also BUY ($$$) indulgences to get some poor soul out of purgatory." Etc. Etc. Etc.
What did Paul and Silas answer? They simply said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31 It is that simple!

This response is almost funny, if it were not for the meanness and deep-seated anger. It is certainly true that there is no enemy of the Church as terrible as one who was once a Catholic.

The story actually confirms the Catholic stance, not in purgatory, but in the necessity for faith to be accompanied by baptism. Notice what Paul answers, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved." Note here something of the Church's communitarian stance. His faith would suffice to bring in his whole household-- family and servants. This is not a privatized faith at all. The apostles then "spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house." We are told that "he and his family were baptized at once." It is probable that this even included children! Baptism remits all sin, original and personal. We do not know the rest of their story. Probably they became a part of the church community established there. They might have also eventually witnessed with their lives.

You make much about many other practices as if they are on the same level with faith and baptism. Catholics would not claim such.

Turning to your apparent mockery, all Catholics aim for heaven and we leave it in God's hands as to whether we will require spiritual perfection on the other side of the grave. Many suffer their purgatory here by joining their crosses to that of Jesus and enduring all things for his sake.

They are not sprinkled with Jericho water but they are filled with faith and are baptized. If it were not essential, it would make no sense to do it. It is the new rite of initiation for a new People of God. No longer is the sign of entry circumcision, but baptism by water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

No doubt Paul recounted the story of Christ and Mary was and is an important part of that story. She would become a mother to the Church community and they would love her in imitation of Christ who loved her.

They would assemble with others no doubt to celebrate the Lord's Supper and the renewal of this new covenant in the blood of Christ.

While they would not speak of indulgences as such, they would proclaim the news of God's favor to them which is the greatest indulgence of all. Paul and Silas could have run away, but chose to witness to him instead.

Hooper Debate 5 - Questions About Faith & Works

FAITH AND WORKS

Mark 16:16: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

HOOPER: Does the last part say, "but he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned? No. It simply says "he that believeth not shall be damned." It is unbelief that damns a person, not the lack of city water baptism. Water baptism doesn't save.

The text says what it says, faith and baptism are intimately linked. It makes sense that you would reject this Scriptural teaching, given that it mandates a church community as necessary to do the baptising. You must take the whole of Scripture, not just the parts you like best. Baptism in itself must somehow be linked to faith-- either of the person being initiated or in the case of infants, as professed by the parents. The message of Jesus about being "born again" is part of the understanding of baptism as a regeneration in Christ. We are washed clean of original sin. Personal sins are forgiven. A person becomes a new creation in Christ and is initiated into the mystical body of Christ, the Church. Sanctifying and actual grace are infused into the soul. We can only be baptised once, but the graces of baptism can be forfeited by serious sin. They can also be restored by repentence, true sorrow for sin and contrition, and the sacrament of confession.

Both faith and good works are necessary for salvation. This is the witness of Scripture.

HOOPER: Nowhere for a New Testament Christians does it say that "faith and good works are necessary for salvation." You are the one who is wanting the Bible to teach it what YOU think it means. You have wrest the Scriptures and are purely preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL. (Gal. 1:8-9) Every true born again Christian knows he is not justified by God by "his own works." The Bible even tells us that, "not of works, lest any man should boast..Eph. 2:8,9. In relation to Salvation, the Bible says it is not of works: Not by works (Titus 3:5) Not of works (Eph. 2:8,9) No more of works (Romans 11:6).

I have already quoted James (in another debate response) to show that the inspired Word does not discount the need for works. Many of the Scriptures quoted here are in reference to the works of the old law. It is true that these works are not required for justification. However, it would be wrong to apply such sentiment to all human activity or work. Our Lord tells us himself (see Matthew 16:24-28): "For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then repay each according to his conduct." What we do matters very much. I subscribe to no Gospel other than the one transmitted to the Church and preached in each generation. As I have said before, faith and works must come as a package. Our works are not simply the fruits of our faith but rather are a manifestation of it. We invite the Lord to continue his saving work in us. We do not boast in ourselves, but of the one who is in us and the Church.

Martin Luther was so possessed by his "faith alone" theory that he even inserted the word "alone" into his version of the bible.

HOOPER: No, Martin Luther added nothing, you are the one who added "good works."

The record is clear. Luther was shown his so-called mistake by an associate and he remarked stubbornly that he would not remove it (alone) even if an angel came down from heaven and demanded it.

HOOPER: Eph. 2:5 makes it clear that "by grace ye are saved." Do you see anything else? It stands ALONE.

Yes, we are saved by grace. This is essential to Catholic teaching. About this much we agree.

HOOPER: It doesn't say we are saved by "grace and good works" as you have added.

Where and how do you think we avail ourselves of grace? Faith and works dispose us to God's grace. There is human cooperation with divine intervention.

HOOPER: Martin simply believed the Scriptures where it concerned the free gift of salvation.

No, Martin simply underwent the tower experience where supposedly his great insight came simultaneously with a good bowel movement after a period of constipation. He was also never able to win the affirmation or favor of his father; he would translate this anxiety into his theology and force the Scriptures to conform to his view where imputation takes the place of transformation. Men are never good in his appreciation, but rather are merely treated as such by God in respects to Jesus and his saving work.

HOOPER: He knew it was by grace ONLY and not by GRACE PLUS WORKS which every Catholic Church, every Jehovah's Witnesses, every Church of Christ, Seventh Day Adventists, et. al. preach. You preach "another gospel." (Gal. 1:8,9).

I preach the same Good News as Jesus and the Apostles did. The message of Luther is that "faith alone" saves; but he errs in dismissing the value of works as an element of faith. There is no competition between faith and works and neither is there with grace. All is grace-- it is this truth that validates the Catholic message while marking your reformational emphasis as fraudulent.

HOOPER: The Bible is clear that we are SAVED BY GRACE PLUS NOTHING. Grace, period.

Men are not robots. Men have the freedom to accept or to reject God's grace. Your terminology, "plus nothing" does not appear in Scripture and is not the same as "grace alone".

HOOPER: In Ephesians we read, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Right, we are not saved by the works of the old law. But Catholics do not mean such by their emphasis upon works. What they mean is OBEDIENCE. Do you think that a man can steal heaven if all his works or actions violate the commandments and the law of love? Please, this is ridiculous!

HOOPER: Why do you have a problem with this? What are the complexities with such verses as Titus 3:5, Rom. 11:6, Eph. 2:8,9 etc.?

The complexities are yours, and those who have spoon-fed you the venom that you use against the Church that first introduced you to Jesus.

HOOPER: Only an unregenerate man will run with passages that emphasize WORKS (Acts 2:38, Matt. 24:13, James 2:26, etc.).

Who are you to judge me? Your presumption shows how serious your hatred of the Church has infected your reasoning. While I disagree with you, it is my hope that ignorance and the misdirection given from others will relieve you of some degree of culpability. While I live in the sure and certain hope of my salvation, I leave such judgment in the hands of almighty God and not with an ex-Catholic baptist who hates the Church.

HOOPER: An unregenerate man will run to to complex verses to negate the clear ones. You would do well to "study" the Bible so you may engage in rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15). In Ephesians 2:8 and 9, it is clear that one is saved by GRACE and NOT OF WORKS. Grace is not of works (Rom. 11:6). In the Church Age, God will never justify a man who "works" for his salvation (Rom. 4:5). By works shall no man be justified (Gal. 3:11). No one has to work for salvation, it is a GIFT (Eph. 2:8), and a FREE GIFT (Rom. 5:15,16; Rom. 6:23). No one can work for it nor purchase it. It is a "gift of righteousness" (Rom. 5:17) which no Roman Catholic Church could ever give me. One must come to Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church) and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for this gift of eternal life and the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Now, not only are we saved BY GRACE, for Eph. 2:5 makes it clear "by grace ye are saved," but we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves." The "that" has to do with "faith." Faith is the medium.

When told about his error, Luther responded that he would not remove it even if an angel from heaven were to tell him to do so. You have to consider the whole of Scripture and not just dissected verses taken out of context to give the impression of supporting your erroneous positions. The fact that you do not even acknowledge areas of agreement demonstrates that this is not so much a debate of ideas as it is one of venomous anti-Catholicism, in other words a hateful bigotry that should have no place among God's true children.

HOOPER: The man was not in error, just like the many before him, all the way back to Acts 8 with the Ethiopian. Martin Luther simply had the courage to face the falsehood and wickedness of the Roman Catholic Church and her errors. Like so many others, he knew salvation was not by works. When confronted with the the gospel of Christ he believed, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;" (Rom. 1:16)

Catholics rightly contend that faith must be actualized with charity. We profess and make real our faith, not only with an assent of the mind and our words, but with our heart and our actions. Christ is only "our personal Lord and Savior" if we exercise necessary faith and good works. The incarnation of Christ, first into human flesh and now into our souls by grace, allows him to perpetuate his ministry through our lives and us. Good works have merit precisely because the Lord living in us ultimately performs them. Since faith and good works are required, it becomes an imperative that we reject the view of Luther.

HOOPER: You can reject anybody's view all you like, it doesn't negate the word of God. The bottom line is that the Roman Catholic Churches teaches that one must earn ("faith and good works") his way into heaven. If one must "earn" his way into heaven by "good works," then Christ's death on the cross was for nothing; this would make the "gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23), as stated in the Bible, a lie according to Rome.

It does make a difference what we believe. The consensus on this issue from modern day Lutherans and Catholics is evidence of a positive development in mainline Protestantism upon this point as well as a reconciliatory stance from Catholicism.

HOOPER: Consensus on the issue from modern day Lutherans and Catholics means nothing. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. " -Matt. 7:13,14 Jesus is elaborating a familiar doctrine found from Proverbs. (Prov. 14:12 and 16:25) The majority is wrong when it comes to matters of spiritual salvation (Roman Catholics, Calvinists, Campbellites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Lutherans, Christian Science), and any other organization who teaches a "faith plus works" for salvation.

Your condemnation of Roman Catholicism and just about everyone else, shows the absurdity of your position. Maybe you are Baptist, but only of a branch of that denomination that condemns most of the Christians in the world because they fail to agree with you, personally. Further, not all the religious groups you mention concur about the aperatus of salvation, demonstrating ignorance about the soteriology of different faith confessions.

The gate is indeed narrow, and I would contend that our Lord gave the keys to this gate to Peter and his successors. Your closed-mindedness makes any real debate with you pointless. However, I post these corrections for others who might be misled by your prejudiced poison.

Hooper Debate 4 - Questions About Good Works

GOOD WORKS

James 2:22-26: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Hooper: For you to think this kind of salvation is exactly like New Testament salvation, only proves you do not accurately study your Bible (2 Tim. 2:15).

You are the one who is going to strip the Scriptures of their truthfulness by human rationalization, which by the way, comes from an anti-Catholic apologists and not through any direct movement of the Holy Spirit guiding you in the truth. We all have our authorities. You trust in men with no safeguard of truth. Mine have been preserved in the truth as a Magisterium from the very first.

Hooper: According to the text you pull to try to prove a "works" salvation, you "conveniently" left out verse 21.

There was no deceit, just no need to quote the whole Bible to make a point. Nothing of my position is undermined.

Hooper: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Concerning Abraham's "justification," note that verse 21 separated Abraham's IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS (see Rom. 4:22) from his JUSTIFICATION by more than 15 years! (it was not done simultaneously like ours is in the church age.)

Actually, the justification of Abraham was not anything like the Lutheran view of imputation which you insert here. The Hebrew notion of righteousness in the Old Testament did not diminish the need for a true Savior. Indeed, the early Semites did not have a clear understanding of an afterlife; rather, they saw God's blessing in terms of progeny, land and material wealth. Abraham found favor with God because in his great faith he was willing even to sacrifice his son, the child of promise. Your debate here is not with me but with the Scriptures, particularly with James and how he sees Abraham as a figure for Christ and his saving work. As for the "simultaneous" bit, this is not actually the Catholic view. If a person sustains his faith until the very end, then yes, he can live without fear and in the sure and certain HOPE of his salvation. However, you mean it as a one time faith profession, after which (even if the person should prove himself a devil) he will necessary go to heaven. You do not see any kind of spiritual or moral transformation in justification. Rather, using the word IMPUTATION, a term coined (and made part of bible translations) by Luther and his cohorts.

Hooper: Not only that, Abraham's sins were not "taken away" ever after righteousness was imputed to him (see Hebrews 10:4), ours is!

Obviously, before the coming of Christ, no one could enter heaven. Even after his death, Abraham would have waited for his Savior with the other "righteous" dead. Their justification would dispose them to Christ's saving grace later in history. However, people throughout could damn themselves and face eternal perdition.

Hooper: Let's look a little more closely comparing Scripture with Scripture. Here we have: "For if Abraham were justified by works, [James says he was] he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." --Rom. 4:2. Okay, we see that Abraham's works did not justify him in the way we're justified for salvation, because if Abraham could have gloried, he couldn't have before God.

The Catholic Church speaks of Old Testament righteousness or justification as a type or prefigurement for that accomplished by Christ. We never claimed they were the same. But James, who is an inspired author, is still saying that works play a part in our redemption-- not apart from faith-- but as an element of real faith. Faith is more than empty words. Ultimately, faith means obedience.

Hooper: But let's not stop there. Look at the next verse: "For what saith the scripture? Abraham *believed God,* and it was counted unto him for righteousness." --Rom. 4:3. Now, what you read so far is that Abraham was justified by faith, Abraham was not justified by works, Abraham believed God, and was imputed to him for righteousness.

Again, your argument is with James who says we are saved by works. In any case, you cannot have it both ways-- saying that Abraham's justification is not analogous to ours and then saying the opposite. Further, belief here is not any kind of evangelical exhortation. The Hebrews would well interpret Abraham's faith as obedience to God, a work so to speak, even when it was difficult.

Hooper: There were no works involved when Abraham was imputed with righteousness. Now go to James 2. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, [Paul said he wasn't]

Actually, you have to look at the context again. James here means this as a rhetorical question. It is absolutely stupid, the heights of incompetence, to claim that James wanted someone to say "nay" to his question and dispute him. Martin Luther himself realized that James disagreed with his interpretation of Paul and that is why he originally deleted James from his German Bible.

Hooper: WHEN he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" -James 2:21.

The measure of Abraham's faith is in that pivotal act. You cannot dismiss it. It parallels the work of God in the New Testament where the heavenly Father does not stay the hand of evil men in sacrificing his Son on the altar of the Cross.

Hooper: Now, look closely. Paul, in the Book of Romans, wasn't talking about that. In Rom. 4:2 and 3, Paul wasn't talking about Abraham offering up Isaac, he was talking about Abraham going out there at night and believing that he would have as much seed as the stars in heaven. So we have to make a distinction here. When God calls Abraham out and tells him to look at the stars and says "so shall thy seed be," and he believed in the Lord and is imputed him for righteousness, that's Genesis 15. Then many years later, after Isaac is born, he takes him out there and he's "justified by works" when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar.

First, it is very difficult to harmonize Paul and James in how they reckon justification and works, particularly in how they use the legacy of Abraham. One stresses the element of faith and the other the works of the covenant.

Second, when Paul talks about the faith of Abraham, he means it as a consistent reality in the great patriarch's life. It is indeed measured in his willingness to sacrifice his Son, but the hand of God had been upon him from early on when he was called out from the other tribes to be the father of a new people. Abraham had long trusted God and is indeed the father in faith to both Jews and Christians. He trusts that the same God who gave him Isaac will somehow still keep his promise to make his descendants "as the stars of heaven". It is true that no empty fidelity to the law could save him or anyone. However, his faith was realized again and again by trusting God and in faithfully preserving the covenant that God had established with him-- and not just with him personally, but with his whole people. In a sense, we see something of an Old Testament church. If they keep his covenant, God promises that he will be their God and they shall be his people.

Hooper: Then they are not the same passage at all. Paul is talking about one thing and James the other. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham (by simply believing God) 15 years before he got justified (WHEN he did something...offer Isaac). Abraham's righteousness and justification was not simultaneously applied in his life like ours is. Abraham wasn't justified completely until he offered up Isaac on the alter. His works completed his faith.

James and Paul mention Abraham to augment their own points of views; it would be wrong to read too much of a New Testament or Christological view of salvation in the faith of the ancient patriarch. The iniative is from God. He selected and called Abram (later Abraham) from his tribe to become a new people. He reveals himself as his God and they have to disavow the gods of others. Later they will discern that the other gods are utterly false. You distinguish between righteousness and justification; and yet, such may only be an abberation of translation in that the same word is often translated either way, at the whim of the exegete or theologian. I have no problem with the notion of his works "completing" his faith, but I suspect most your Baptist minister friends would fault you on this concession. It is precisely the Catholic position that faith includes works.

Hooper: Yes, Abraham was justified by works WHEN he offered up Isaac upon the altar. (He did something for justification).

Well, okay, but as I stated before, finding divine favor in the Old Testament was no immediate ticket into Paradise. Only salvation in Christ makes possible our transition from this world to the heavenly shore.

Hooper: Yes, Rahab was justified by works when she hid the spies. Yes, works were involved in their justification. Does your justification involve works? If so, then you are depending on WORKS to save you and not the Blood of Jesus Christ. Your completed justification does not come by your good works as Abraham's did. I don't know about you, but every born again believer's justification is by the grace of God (Rom. 3:24), we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), and a Christian is justified by the blood of Christ (Rom. 5:9), and notice that not once does it say we are justified by water baptism and works.

The mention of Abraham and Rahab are merely instances where Old Testament figures found favor with God. They are used by James to sprinboard his argument in favor of works, particularly to those who do not think they have to live out their faith. You seem to capitulate your argument in saying, "Yes, works were involved in their justification." Your argument here is again with James, all I did was quote him and you have jumped up and down trying to eradicate his inspired authority. Final justification has not been completed, although Catholics admit, as they should, that redemption has been accomplished by Christ. We are indeed justified by faith, but NOT by faith "alone". We are, HOWEVER, justified by "grace alone". The role of works, which you seem to admit, does not nullify the saving blood of Jesus. Baptism is an expression of faith, both personal and corporate, and the obligation of a believer is to live a life of holy charity and obedience.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Matthew 7:21: "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven."

Hooper: I don't know why you are quoting these passages. Do you think these deny born again Christians eternal life? They don't. Besides, you would do well to know there is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God.

I think these pasages say a lot about people who are twisted by anger and bigotry. Those who become enemies of truth, endanger their relationship with the one who is the Way, and the Truth and the Life. Heaven is where God is, so what difference can there be in speaking of the Kingdom of God and that of Heaven? Christ is the kingdom personified. All his parables and exhortations about the kingdom are beseeching us to make Jesus Christ the treasure beyond measure in our lives.

Hooper Debate 3 - Questions About Sources

SOURCES FOR CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

The misuse of the Scriptures, twisting verses into contrived apologetical schemes for purposes of refutation or to shore up dubious opinions is increasingly common. Catholics are reminded to be careful in their study of the bible, acknowledging that there is an authentic interpreter (the Church) and that we have a living tradition that includes the writings and homilies of the ancient fathers and the saints. Catholics tend to interpret passages in a contextual manner that does no injustice to the Word of God. Certain fundamentalists will pick-and-choose verses with little consideration about what they are actually addressing or the inherent language and cultural peculiarities attached to them. The Internet itself is full of sites where individuals parrot the anti-Catholic arguments of those in the last century who saw the immigrants from Catholic lands to be the sub-human mongrels castoff by a Europe that was glad to be rid of them. It is ironic that the new "know-nothings" sometimes include the descendants of these poor Catholic refugees, adopting the prejudiced arguments used against their forebears. The fallen-away Catholic betrays all for which they sacrificed and forfeits the fullness of truth as proclaimed by the true Church of Christ. It is unfortunate, but true, that the bible can be erroneously used to prove all sorts of nonsense. Opponents of Catholicism reject the Pope and yet in the same breath give themselves his authority and infallibility over religious truth. More so than the Pope would ever claim, their conceit drives them into the role of the only competent interpreter of the Scriptures. Such a position is flawed because it is a lie. Depending upon their agenda, the meanings of verses might even vacillate.

1. Those things taught directly by the bible, either explicitly or implicitly.

Hooper: You may take things from the Bible, but they are given with "private interpretation."

Your point misses the point. While I would contend that there is both a public Christian teaching authority over the Scriptures, just as the Jews had learned teachers over the Hebrew Scriptures, the fact remains that the bible constitutes the primal source for revealed Christian doctrine. This revelation is not given just to individuals, but to the Church Jesus established.

2. Those things transmitted through sacred traditions that develop and complement reveal truths while not contradicting the biblical testimony.

Hooper: Lie. All Catholic traditions and Catholic doctrines contradicts the Holy Bible.

Your bigotry knows no limits. You call me a liar and say that ALL Catholic traditions and doctrines violate Scripture. Well, let us test this assertion. The Catholic Church teaches the following: (1) that Jesus was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit and that he is God and man; (2) that the miracles of Jesus substantiated his message and divinity; (3) that he came to redeem sinners from the bondage of Satan so that they might know the freedom of the children of God; (4) that he offers sinners the forgiveness of their transgressions and a new life in him; (5) that he called to himself apostles and disciples who would witness his words and acts and constitute the beginnings of his church; (6) that he was betrayed by his own, mocked, scourged, and ultimately crucified by sinful men; (7) that he rose from the dead, appeared to many in the Christian community, and ascended to the heavenly Father; (8) that he sits at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and the judge of the living and the dead; (9) that he calls all men and women to have a saving faith in him; and (10) that each member of his Church is summoned to have a real relationship with him, as well as a loving bond with our brothers and sisters in faith. Okay, you said ALL, so does that mean that you reject these central Catholic truths as somehow contradictory to Holy Writ? If so, you are not even a Christian!

Hooper: Jesus said concerning Scriptures, "the scriptures must be fulfilled" (Mark 14:49, Luke 24:44), and not once did He quote anything about tradition or even suggest that it would be fulfilled. This is a serious omission if tradition is essential. There were traditions held from the time of Moses up to the time when Christ walked this earth that were observed, and Jesus had nothing good to say about it. In fact, Jesus denounced their traditions that contradicted the word of God.

"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." -Mark 7:9. "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." -Mark 7:13. "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." -Col. 2:8.

Yes, the Scriptures must be fulfilled, and all essential saving truth is found there in some form, but the existence of Christian traditions, does not in itself negate the Bible in any way. Where you see conflict, we see complimentarity. Isolated texts regarding either Jewish tradition and customs or the contrary philosophies of the day do not speak about those traditions passed down from the apostles and down through the centuries. Further, not all traditions are of the same weight. Even Protestant churches have their traditions-- the commentaries they trust, the preachers they revere, etc. They might avoid calling such things traditions, but that is what they are and they create the prism through which they interpret Scripture and see religious truths. Some traditions find their source in Scripture. For instance, many religious communities enact some form of the Lord's Supper as remembrance; but the frequency, prayers, readings, accompanying theology, and accidentals are part of a living tradition of some sort. Such variation is even seen in the many churches, Western and Eastern, that make up the Catholic family.

3. The guiding presence of the Holy Spirit promised by Christ to safeguard his Church (John 14:16,26).

Hooper: The Holy Spirit is promised to those who are born from above, born of the Spirit. The Scriptures do not say anything about the Holy Spirit needing the help of the Roman Catholic Church to teach all things. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (v 26).

The "you" being addressed here is the early Christian, i.e. CATHOLIC Church. The first bishop-priests of the Church, the Apostles are given jurisdiction to teach and minister; something they are still doing in their successors. The Holy Spirit is given to the Church and in this body, to the many believers. You are very much mistakened. We read in Acts 9:31, "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord."

Hooper: Every born again Christian has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him, if you don't have the Holy Spirit then you are "none of his."

No one is "born again" apart from some degree of incorporation into Christ's Church.

Hooper: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."(Rom. 8:9). "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom. 8:11). If all Christians are "led by the Holy Spirit of God" (Rom. 8:14), then the Holy Spirit who dwells in them is able to help them understand the Scriptures. 1 Cor. 1:12- 13 says, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

These are fine Scriptures and are proclaimed by the Catholic Church. The doctrine of salvation in the Church rests upon the fact that the members of Christ's family in faith have the Spirit of God alive inside of them by grace. We fully believe that eternal life begins now, with incorporation into Christ, and not merely when we breathe our last breath. Catholics often invoke the Holy Spirit before prayer, spiritual reading and Scripture study. However, this personal invocation does not demean or reputiate the corporate role of the Holy Spirit in the appointed teachers and shepherds of the Church. Notice that Paul writes, "we" have received, not just "I" received. When Christians use the plural, they are speaking of the fellowship of believers in the Church and all her levels of vocation and service.

4. The abiding presence of Christ in the Church as he had promised (Matthew 28:20).

Hooper: I shall quote the verse: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Note there's nothing in there concerning the Roman Catholic Church. Verse 20 simply proves we are to obey Him (not Rome), and follow His commandments (not Rome's), and HE, Jesus Christ, is with us to the end (Not Rome). "Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5

The problem you have is that you have lost any real historical sense. The only Church that fully goes back to the Apostolic age is the Catholic Church, although the Orthodox churches have some claim of their own depending upon how one views their breech from the See of Peter. The early Church would only become Roman with the death of Peter and the transfer of the Mother See to Rome. The word CATHOLIC simply means universal or worldwide. Jesus only established one Church and we find that community, century after century, in Catholicism. Protestants err greviously in thinking that the true church consisted of unknown and/or underground groups of Baptists who had their bibles beamed down from some star trek angels. The Lord has promised never to forsake his Church, something that you could not do.