Hooper Debate 5 - Questions About Faith & Works

FAITH AND WORKS

Mark 16:16: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

HOOPER: Does the last part say, "but he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned? No. It simply says "he that believeth not shall be damned." It is unbelief that damns a person, not the lack of city water baptism. Water baptism doesn't save.

The text says what it says, faith and baptism are intimately linked. It makes sense that you would reject this Scriptural teaching, given that it mandates a church community as necessary to do the baptising. You must take the whole of Scripture, not just the parts you like best. Baptism in itself must somehow be linked to faith-- either of the person being initiated or in the case of infants, as professed by the parents. The message of Jesus about being "born again" is part of the understanding of baptism as a regeneration in Christ. We are washed clean of original sin. Personal sins are forgiven. A person becomes a new creation in Christ and is initiated into the mystical body of Christ, the Church. Sanctifying and actual grace are infused into the soul. We can only be baptised once, but the graces of baptism can be forfeited by serious sin. They can also be restored by repentence, true sorrow for sin and contrition, and the sacrament of confession.

Both faith and good works are necessary for salvation. This is the witness of Scripture.

HOOPER: Nowhere for a New Testament Christians does it say that "faith and good works are necessary for salvation." You are the one who is wanting the Bible to teach it what YOU think it means. You have wrest the Scriptures and are purely preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL. (Gal. 1:8-9) Every true born again Christian knows he is not justified by God by "his own works." The Bible even tells us that, "not of works, lest any man should boast..Eph. 2:8,9. In relation to Salvation, the Bible says it is not of works: Not by works (Titus 3:5) Not of works (Eph. 2:8,9) No more of works (Romans 11:6).

I have already quoted James (in another debate response) to show that the inspired Word does not discount the need for works. Many of the Scriptures quoted here are in reference to the works of the old law. It is true that these works are not required for justification. However, it would be wrong to apply such sentiment to all human activity or work. Our Lord tells us himself (see Matthew 16:24-28): "For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then repay each according to his conduct." What we do matters very much. I subscribe to no Gospel other than the one transmitted to the Church and preached in each generation. As I have said before, faith and works must come as a package. Our works are not simply the fruits of our faith but rather are a manifestation of it. We invite the Lord to continue his saving work in us. We do not boast in ourselves, but of the one who is in us and the Church.

Martin Luther was so possessed by his "faith alone" theory that he even inserted the word "alone" into his version of the bible.

HOOPER: No, Martin Luther added nothing, you are the one who added "good works."

The record is clear. Luther was shown his so-called mistake by an associate and he remarked stubbornly that he would not remove it (alone) even if an angel came down from heaven and demanded it.

HOOPER: Eph. 2:5 makes it clear that "by grace ye are saved." Do you see anything else? It stands ALONE.

Yes, we are saved by grace. This is essential to Catholic teaching. About this much we agree.

HOOPER: It doesn't say we are saved by "grace and good works" as you have added.

Where and how do you think we avail ourselves of grace? Faith and works dispose us to God's grace. There is human cooperation with divine intervention.

HOOPER: Martin simply believed the Scriptures where it concerned the free gift of salvation.

No, Martin simply underwent the tower experience where supposedly his great insight came simultaneously with a good bowel movement after a period of constipation. He was also never able to win the affirmation or favor of his father; he would translate this anxiety into his theology and force the Scriptures to conform to his view where imputation takes the place of transformation. Men are never good in his appreciation, but rather are merely treated as such by God in respects to Jesus and his saving work.

HOOPER: He knew it was by grace ONLY and not by GRACE PLUS WORKS which every Catholic Church, every Jehovah's Witnesses, every Church of Christ, Seventh Day Adventists, et. al. preach. You preach "another gospel." (Gal. 1:8,9).

I preach the same Good News as Jesus and the Apostles did. The message of Luther is that "faith alone" saves; but he errs in dismissing the value of works as an element of faith. There is no competition between faith and works and neither is there with grace. All is grace-- it is this truth that validates the Catholic message while marking your reformational emphasis as fraudulent.

HOOPER: The Bible is clear that we are SAVED BY GRACE PLUS NOTHING. Grace, period.

Men are not robots. Men have the freedom to accept or to reject God's grace. Your terminology, "plus nothing" does not appear in Scripture and is not the same as "grace alone".

HOOPER: In Ephesians we read, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Right, we are not saved by the works of the old law. But Catholics do not mean such by their emphasis upon works. What they mean is OBEDIENCE. Do you think that a man can steal heaven if all his works or actions violate the commandments and the law of love? Please, this is ridiculous!

HOOPER: Why do you have a problem with this? What are the complexities with such verses as Titus 3:5, Rom. 11:6, Eph. 2:8,9 etc.?

The complexities are yours, and those who have spoon-fed you the venom that you use against the Church that first introduced you to Jesus.

HOOPER: Only an unregenerate man will run with passages that emphasize WORKS (Acts 2:38, Matt. 24:13, James 2:26, etc.).

Who are you to judge me? Your presumption shows how serious your hatred of the Church has infected your reasoning. While I disagree with you, it is my hope that ignorance and the misdirection given from others will relieve you of some degree of culpability. While I live in the sure and certain hope of my salvation, I leave such judgment in the hands of almighty God and not with an ex-Catholic baptist who hates the Church.

HOOPER: An unregenerate man will run to to complex verses to negate the clear ones. You would do well to "study" the Bible so you may engage in rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15). In Ephesians 2:8 and 9, it is clear that one is saved by GRACE and NOT OF WORKS. Grace is not of works (Rom. 11:6). In the Church Age, God will never justify a man who "works" for his salvation (Rom. 4:5). By works shall no man be justified (Gal. 3:11). No one has to work for salvation, it is a GIFT (Eph. 2:8), and a FREE GIFT (Rom. 5:15,16; Rom. 6:23). No one can work for it nor purchase it. It is a "gift of righteousness" (Rom. 5:17) which no Roman Catholic Church could ever give me. One must come to Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church) and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for this gift of eternal life and the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Now, not only are we saved BY GRACE, for Eph. 2:5 makes it clear "by grace ye are saved," but we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves." The "that" has to do with "faith." Faith is the medium.

When told about his error, Luther responded that he would not remove it even if an angel from heaven were to tell him to do so. You have to consider the whole of Scripture and not just dissected verses taken out of context to give the impression of supporting your erroneous positions. The fact that you do not even acknowledge areas of agreement demonstrates that this is not so much a debate of ideas as it is one of venomous anti-Catholicism, in other words a hateful bigotry that should have no place among God's true children.

HOOPER: The man was not in error, just like the many before him, all the way back to Acts 8 with the Ethiopian. Martin Luther simply had the courage to face the falsehood and wickedness of the Roman Catholic Church and her errors. Like so many others, he knew salvation was not by works. When confronted with the the gospel of Christ he believed, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;" (Rom. 1:16)

Catholics rightly contend that faith must be actualized with charity. We profess and make real our faith, not only with an assent of the mind and our words, but with our heart and our actions. Christ is only "our personal Lord and Savior" if we exercise necessary faith and good works. The incarnation of Christ, first into human flesh and now into our souls by grace, allows him to perpetuate his ministry through our lives and us. Good works have merit precisely because the Lord living in us ultimately performs them. Since faith and good works are required, it becomes an imperative that we reject the view of Luther.

HOOPER: You can reject anybody's view all you like, it doesn't negate the word of God. The bottom line is that the Roman Catholic Churches teaches that one must earn ("faith and good works") his way into heaven. If one must "earn" his way into heaven by "good works," then Christ's death on the cross was for nothing; this would make the "gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23), as stated in the Bible, a lie according to Rome.

It does make a difference what we believe. The consensus on this issue from modern day Lutherans and Catholics is evidence of a positive development in mainline Protestantism upon this point as well as a reconciliatory stance from Catholicism.

HOOPER: Consensus on the issue from modern day Lutherans and Catholics means nothing. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. " -Matt. 7:13,14 Jesus is elaborating a familiar doctrine found from Proverbs. (Prov. 14:12 and 16:25) The majority is wrong when it comes to matters of spiritual salvation (Roman Catholics, Calvinists, Campbellites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Lutherans, Christian Science), and any other organization who teaches a "faith plus works" for salvation.

Your condemnation of Roman Catholicism and just about everyone else, shows the absurdity of your position. Maybe you are Baptist, but only of a branch of that denomination that condemns most of the Christians in the world because they fail to agree with you, personally. Further, not all the religious groups you mention concur about the aperatus of salvation, demonstrating ignorance about the soteriology of different faith confessions.

The gate is indeed narrow, and I would contend that our Lord gave the keys to this gate to Peter and his successors. Your closed-mindedness makes any real debate with you pointless. However, I post these corrections for others who might be misled by your prejudiced poison.