Hooper Debate 4 - Questions About Good Works

GOOD WORKS

James 2:22-26: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Hooper: For you to think this kind of salvation is exactly like New Testament salvation, only proves you do not accurately study your Bible (2 Tim. 2:15).

You are the one who is going to strip the Scriptures of their truthfulness by human rationalization, which by the way, comes from an anti-Catholic apologists and not through any direct movement of the Holy Spirit guiding you in the truth. We all have our authorities. You trust in men with no safeguard of truth. Mine have been preserved in the truth as a Magisterium from the very first.

Hooper: According to the text you pull to try to prove a "works" salvation, you "conveniently" left out verse 21.

There was no deceit, just no need to quote the whole Bible to make a point. Nothing of my position is undermined.

Hooper: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Concerning Abraham's "justification," note that verse 21 separated Abraham's IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS (see Rom. 4:22) from his JUSTIFICATION by more than 15 years! (it was not done simultaneously like ours is in the church age.)

Actually, the justification of Abraham was not anything like the Lutheran view of imputation which you insert here. The Hebrew notion of righteousness in the Old Testament did not diminish the need for a true Savior. Indeed, the early Semites did not have a clear understanding of an afterlife; rather, they saw God's blessing in terms of progeny, land and material wealth. Abraham found favor with God because in his great faith he was willing even to sacrifice his son, the child of promise. Your debate here is not with me but with the Scriptures, particularly with James and how he sees Abraham as a figure for Christ and his saving work. As for the "simultaneous" bit, this is not actually the Catholic view. If a person sustains his faith until the very end, then yes, he can live without fear and in the sure and certain HOPE of his salvation. However, you mean it as a one time faith profession, after which (even if the person should prove himself a devil) he will necessary go to heaven. You do not see any kind of spiritual or moral transformation in justification. Rather, using the word IMPUTATION, a term coined (and made part of bible translations) by Luther and his cohorts.

Hooper: Not only that, Abraham's sins were not "taken away" ever after righteousness was imputed to him (see Hebrews 10:4), ours is!

Obviously, before the coming of Christ, no one could enter heaven. Even after his death, Abraham would have waited for his Savior with the other "righteous" dead. Their justification would dispose them to Christ's saving grace later in history. However, people throughout could damn themselves and face eternal perdition.

Hooper: Let's look a little more closely comparing Scripture with Scripture. Here we have: "For if Abraham were justified by works, [James says he was] he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." --Rom. 4:2. Okay, we see that Abraham's works did not justify him in the way we're justified for salvation, because if Abraham could have gloried, he couldn't have before God.

The Catholic Church speaks of Old Testament righteousness or justification as a type or prefigurement for that accomplished by Christ. We never claimed they were the same. But James, who is an inspired author, is still saying that works play a part in our redemption-- not apart from faith-- but as an element of real faith. Faith is more than empty words. Ultimately, faith means obedience.

Hooper: But let's not stop there. Look at the next verse: "For what saith the scripture? Abraham *believed God,* and it was counted unto him for righteousness." --Rom. 4:3. Now, what you read so far is that Abraham was justified by faith, Abraham was not justified by works, Abraham believed God, and was imputed to him for righteousness.

Again, your argument is with James who says we are saved by works. In any case, you cannot have it both ways-- saying that Abraham's justification is not analogous to ours and then saying the opposite. Further, belief here is not any kind of evangelical exhortation. The Hebrews would well interpret Abraham's faith as obedience to God, a work so to speak, even when it was difficult.

Hooper: There were no works involved when Abraham was imputed with righteousness. Now go to James 2. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, [Paul said he wasn't]

Actually, you have to look at the context again. James here means this as a rhetorical question. It is absolutely stupid, the heights of incompetence, to claim that James wanted someone to say "nay" to his question and dispute him. Martin Luther himself realized that James disagreed with his interpretation of Paul and that is why he originally deleted James from his German Bible.

Hooper: WHEN he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" -James 2:21.

The measure of Abraham's faith is in that pivotal act. You cannot dismiss it. It parallels the work of God in the New Testament where the heavenly Father does not stay the hand of evil men in sacrificing his Son on the altar of the Cross.

Hooper: Now, look closely. Paul, in the Book of Romans, wasn't talking about that. In Rom. 4:2 and 3, Paul wasn't talking about Abraham offering up Isaac, he was talking about Abraham going out there at night and believing that he would have as much seed as the stars in heaven. So we have to make a distinction here. When God calls Abraham out and tells him to look at the stars and says "so shall thy seed be," and he believed in the Lord and is imputed him for righteousness, that's Genesis 15. Then many years later, after Isaac is born, he takes him out there and he's "justified by works" when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar.

First, it is very difficult to harmonize Paul and James in how they reckon justification and works, particularly in how they use the legacy of Abraham. One stresses the element of faith and the other the works of the covenant.

Second, when Paul talks about the faith of Abraham, he means it as a consistent reality in the great patriarch's life. It is indeed measured in his willingness to sacrifice his Son, but the hand of God had been upon him from early on when he was called out from the other tribes to be the father of a new people. Abraham had long trusted God and is indeed the father in faith to both Jews and Christians. He trusts that the same God who gave him Isaac will somehow still keep his promise to make his descendants "as the stars of heaven". It is true that no empty fidelity to the law could save him or anyone. However, his faith was realized again and again by trusting God and in faithfully preserving the covenant that God had established with him-- and not just with him personally, but with his whole people. In a sense, we see something of an Old Testament church. If they keep his covenant, God promises that he will be their God and they shall be his people.

Hooper: Then they are not the same passage at all. Paul is talking about one thing and James the other. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham (by simply believing God) 15 years before he got justified (WHEN he did something...offer Isaac). Abraham's righteousness and justification was not simultaneously applied in his life like ours is. Abraham wasn't justified completely until he offered up Isaac on the alter. His works completed his faith.

James and Paul mention Abraham to augment their own points of views; it would be wrong to read too much of a New Testament or Christological view of salvation in the faith of the ancient patriarch. The iniative is from God. He selected and called Abram (later Abraham) from his tribe to become a new people. He reveals himself as his God and they have to disavow the gods of others. Later they will discern that the other gods are utterly false. You distinguish between righteousness and justification; and yet, such may only be an abberation of translation in that the same word is often translated either way, at the whim of the exegete or theologian. I have no problem with the notion of his works "completing" his faith, but I suspect most your Baptist minister friends would fault you on this concession. It is precisely the Catholic position that faith includes works.

Hooper: Yes, Abraham was justified by works WHEN he offered up Isaac upon the altar. (He did something for justification).

Well, okay, but as I stated before, finding divine favor in the Old Testament was no immediate ticket into Paradise. Only salvation in Christ makes possible our transition from this world to the heavenly shore.

Hooper: Yes, Rahab was justified by works when she hid the spies. Yes, works were involved in their justification. Does your justification involve works? If so, then you are depending on WORKS to save you and not the Blood of Jesus Christ. Your completed justification does not come by your good works as Abraham's did. I don't know about you, but every born again believer's justification is by the grace of God (Rom. 3:24), we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), and a Christian is justified by the blood of Christ (Rom. 5:9), and notice that not once does it say we are justified by water baptism and works.

The mention of Abraham and Rahab are merely instances where Old Testament figures found favor with God. They are used by James to sprinboard his argument in favor of works, particularly to those who do not think they have to live out their faith. You seem to capitulate your argument in saying, "Yes, works were involved in their justification." Your argument here is again with James, all I did was quote him and you have jumped up and down trying to eradicate his inspired authority. Final justification has not been completed, although Catholics admit, as they should, that redemption has been accomplished by Christ. We are indeed justified by faith, but NOT by faith "alone". We are, HOWEVER, justified by "grace alone". The role of works, which you seem to admit, does not nullify the saving blood of Jesus. Baptism is an expression of faith, both personal and corporate, and the obligation of a believer is to live a life of holy charity and obedience.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Matthew 7:21: "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven."

Hooper: I don't know why you are quoting these passages. Do you think these deny born again Christians eternal life? They don't. Besides, you would do well to know there is a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God.

I think these pasages say a lot about people who are twisted by anger and bigotry. Those who become enemies of truth, endanger their relationship with the one who is the Way, and the Truth and the Life. Heaven is where God is, so what difference can there be in speaking of the Kingdom of God and that of Heaven? Christ is the kingdom personified. All his parables and exhortations about the kingdom are beseeching us to make Jesus Christ the treasure beyond measure in our lives.