Dealing with an Ex-Catholic Critic of the Church (T-bird)

[Please note that the various views of T-bird are proposed in opposition to Catholicism.]

T-bird writes:

Why do you keep deleteing this message Father Joe...If you read this verse in Timothy it speaks of people living in latter times....Latter times in The Bible means in the Last days prior the coming of Christ....The people Timothy speaks of... is people alive in the last days prior the return of The Lord.... Now I'm not saying that the Catholic Church are the ones....I just have trouble with this when I Think of the Church I grew up in.... Don't ignore me......but respond like a servant of God should respond to a lay person....I do not condemn anyone....Catholics need to learn the truth and not a bunch of water down lovy dubby rituals and stories made up by the Catholic church....Wakeup Father Joe....You know the truth and I'm telling you....you will have no excuse on that Day of judgement....Jesus said Feed my sheep.....The catholic church needs born again priests who will teach the Bible and truth about Christ.....for get about all the volumes of liturgy written by men....It does not do anything for salvation....I'm a disappointed Catholic because I have been fed all that stuff for years....and God finally opened my eyes to the truth.....You might've studied for years...but you have learned nothing.... before you delete my post pray about it... Your brother in Christ Thunderbird

Fr. Joe writes:

[I have already explained my rationale for deletions in another post. However, as some time has come available, I thought I might relate a few more of my thoughts regarding the charges of T-bird.]

While I have made a reliable response to the passage taken out of context in 1 Timothy and stretched to attack Catholicism, he continues to insist that it is a decisive proof text in his arsenal. Another good priest, Fr. Charles Pope, has written upon it regarding the matter of periodic abstinence. Here is the question and answer posed to him:

Q. In Lent we are told by the Church to abstain from meat on Fridays. Who could ever dispute such a fine and noble practice? But, sure enough, I was told by an evangelical that this was not only not good, but was in fact an evil practice! He showed me some text from the Bible that seemed to say that abstaining from meat was a doctrine of demons. I didn't know how to answer him. Can you help me with an answer?

A. The text that many evangelicals and fundamentalists cite is 1 Timothy 4:1-4: "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving." Some consider this text to be a clear condemnation of the Catholic practice of abstaining from meat and the Catholic discipline of celibacy for priests and religious. However this is not the case.

To understand this biblical text it is helpful to recall that the historical situation was likely the emergence of an early form of Gnosticism. Gnosticism was a heresy that, among other things, considered the material world to be evil. This was a heresy because God created the world and God does not create anything that is evil. Gnostics would often command that certain material things (for example, meat) be avoided because all matter was evil. Marriage too, because it involved pleasures of the body, was considered evil (and thus forbidden) by many Gnostics. The text from First Timothy is obviously condemning such views and rightly emphasizes that everything God created is good.

Now the Catholic Church does not call for the abstinence from meat from meat because meat is considered evil. Rather, meat is something good. Most people enjoy its taste and, taken in moderation, it can be part of a healthy and nutritious diet. In abstaining from meat on the Fridays of Lent, Catholics freely renounce something that is good as a sacrifice. We also learn to discipline our bodies by these and other forms of self-denial freely undertaken. If the Catholic Church considered meat to be evil then why would the eating of meat be permitted on all the other days of the year? Clearly we do not consider meat an evil to be rejected.

Likewise, the Catholic Church does not forbid marriage or consider it evil. Rather, she celebrates Christian marriage as a lofty sacrament. Priests and religious are asked to forgo the goods of marriage in order to more fully serve a large number of people. They are not forbidden to marry since they make this decision freely and knowingly before entering upon their vocation.

You can email Fr. Charles Pope at [cepope@juno.com].

Dear T-bird, we as Catholics do not utterly reject the prophetic aspect of such tasks. Certainly today, there are many who malign the institution of marriage, treat certain foods as bad, etc. However, the Catholic Church is not among these. If the Church forbid everyone to marry (like certain sects and cults have done), rejected certain foods as unclean (more in line with the old Law than the freedom of the new dispensation), and made such disciplines mandatory toward salvation-- then condemnation would be warranted. However, such is not the case. As a priest, I FREELY chose to live a celibate life, in imitation of our Lord and as recommended by St. Paul. I oppose sexual perversion, immodesty, fornication, and adultery. I support the families in my charge and strive to be a help in keeping their marriages strong and holy. Your charge does not stick.

T-bird writes:

Destruction was sent to the nations who practiced human sacrifices....these were nations who fought against God by attacking God's people...who is the Jewish nation....The Bible makes it clear...whosoever harms the Jewish people the curse of God will be upon them...Whosoever blessed the Jewish nation The Blessing of God will be upon them....When the enemies of God attacked God's people....That nation was doomed by the God's people attacking and destroying everthing including women and children....The same judgement occured in Soddom and Gommorra...these two wicked cities were destroyed by God...everyone there perished...except for the righteous who God warned and allowed to flee....Again the judgement of God shall be upon us for our wickness... satan is the accuser who accuses God of the destructions of nations....instead it is the devil himself who is responsible for all death and destruction on this planet....For man will not turn from sin....but rather persih than accept the salvation God offers.... satan is a liar and murderer it is he and his hordes who cause the suffering of this world...

Fr. Joe responds:

Okay, we as Catholics also believe that God has not forgotten his covenant with Israel.

However, we still view the Church as the People of God and the new Israel. God calls to himself a people. Scriptural language and the singular mention of the Church verifies this.

Do you get much debate or criticism about the "angry God" model to which you subscribe? "When the enemies of God attacked God's people.... That nation was doomed by the God's people attacking and destroying everything including women and children." Did God directly will the execution of the Canaanite children by bashing in their heads? Such is the dilemma in interpretation when a fundamentalist reads a line like" They did not destroy [exterminate] the peoples as the Lord commanded them, but they mingled with the nations and learned to do as they did" (Psalm 106:34-35). I am sure glad that I am a Catholic who knows his faith and is confident in the mercy and salvation that comes through Christ.