Hooper Debate 3 - Questions About Sources

SOURCES FOR CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

The misuse of the Scriptures, twisting verses into contrived apologetical schemes for purposes of refutation or to shore up dubious opinions is increasingly common. Catholics are reminded to be careful in their study of the bible, acknowledging that there is an authentic interpreter (the Church) and that we have a living tradition that includes the writings and homilies of the ancient fathers and the saints. Catholics tend to interpret passages in a contextual manner that does no injustice to the Word of God. Certain fundamentalists will pick-and-choose verses with little consideration about what they are actually addressing or the inherent language and cultural peculiarities attached to them. The Internet itself is full of sites where individuals parrot the anti-Catholic arguments of those in the last century who saw the immigrants from Catholic lands to be the sub-human mongrels castoff by a Europe that was glad to be rid of them. It is ironic that the new "know-nothings" sometimes include the descendants of these poor Catholic refugees, adopting the prejudiced arguments used against their forebears. The fallen-away Catholic betrays all for which they sacrificed and forfeits the fullness of truth as proclaimed by the true Church of Christ. It is unfortunate, but true, that the bible can be erroneously used to prove all sorts of nonsense. Opponents of Catholicism reject the Pope and yet in the same breath give themselves his authority and infallibility over religious truth. More so than the Pope would ever claim, their conceit drives them into the role of the only competent interpreter of the Scriptures. Such a position is flawed because it is a lie. Depending upon their agenda, the meanings of verses might even vacillate.

1. Those things taught directly by the bible, either explicitly or implicitly.

Hooper: You may take things from the Bible, but they are given with "private interpretation."

Your point misses the point. While I would contend that there is both a public Christian teaching authority over the Scriptures, just as the Jews had learned teachers over the Hebrew Scriptures, the fact remains that the bible constitutes the primal source for revealed Christian doctrine. This revelation is not given just to individuals, but to the Church Jesus established.

2. Those things transmitted through sacred traditions that develop and complement reveal truths while not contradicting the biblical testimony.

Hooper: Lie. All Catholic traditions and Catholic doctrines contradicts the Holy Bible.

Your bigotry knows no limits. You call me a liar and say that ALL Catholic traditions and doctrines violate Scripture. Well, let us test this assertion. The Catholic Church teaches the following: (1) that Jesus was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit and that he is God and man; (2) that the miracles of Jesus substantiated his message and divinity; (3) that he came to redeem sinners from the bondage of Satan so that they might know the freedom of the children of God; (4) that he offers sinners the forgiveness of their transgressions and a new life in him; (5) that he called to himself apostles and disciples who would witness his words and acts and constitute the beginnings of his church; (6) that he was betrayed by his own, mocked, scourged, and ultimately crucified by sinful men; (7) that he rose from the dead, appeared to many in the Christian community, and ascended to the heavenly Father; (8) that he sits at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and the judge of the living and the dead; (9) that he calls all men and women to have a saving faith in him; and (10) that each member of his Church is summoned to have a real relationship with him, as well as a loving bond with our brothers and sisters in faith. Okay, you said ALL, so does that mean that you reject these central Catholic truths as somehow contradictory to Holy Writ? If so, you are not even a Christian!

Hooper: Jesus said concerning Scriptures, "the scriptures must be fulfilled" (Mark 14:49, Luke 24:44), and not once did He quote anything about tradition or even suggest that it would be fulfilled. This is a serious omission if tradition is essential. There were traditions held from the time of Moses up to the time when Christ walked this earth that were observed, and Jesus had nothing good to say about it. In fact, Jesus denounced their traditions that contradicted the word of God.

"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." -Mark 7:9. "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." -Mark 7:13. "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." -Col. 2:8.

Yes, the Scriptures must be fulfilled, and all essential saving truth is found there in some form, but the existence of Christian traditions, does not in itself negate the Bible in any way. Where you see conflict, we see complimentarity. Isolated texts regarding either Jewish tradition and customs or the contrary philosophies of the day do not speak about those traditions passed down from the apostles and down through the centuries. Further, not all traditions are of the same weight. Even Protestant churches have their traditions-- the commentaries they trust, the preachers they revere, etc. They might avoid calling such things traditions, but that is what they are and they create the prism through which they interpret Scripture and see religious truths. Some traditions find their source in Scripture. For instance, many religious communities enact some form of the Lord's Supper as remembrance; but the frequency, prayers, readings, accompanying theology, and accidentals are part of a living tradition of some sort. Such variation is even seen in the many churches, Western and Eastern, that make up the Catholic family.

3. The guiding presence of the Holy Spirit promised by Christ to safeguard his Church (John 14:16,26).

Hooper: The Holy Spirit is promised to those who are born from above, born of the Spirit. The Scriptures do not say anything about the Holy Spirit needing the help of the Roman Catholic Church to teach all things. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (v 26).

The "you" being addressed here is the early Christian, i.e. CATHOLIC Church. The first bishop-priests of the Church, the Apostles are given jurisdiction to teach and minister; something they are still doing in their successors. The Holy Spirit is given to the Church and in this body, to the many believers. You are very much mistakened. We read in Acts 9:31, "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord."

Hooper: Every born again Christian has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him, if you don't have the Holy Spirit then you are "none of his."

No one is "born again" apart from some degree of incorporation into Christ's Church.

Hooper: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."(Rom. 8:9). "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom. 8:11). If all Christians are "led by the Holy Spirit of God" (Rom. 8:14), then the Holy Spirit who dwells in them is able to help them understand the Scriptures. 1 Cor. 1:12- 13 says, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

These are fine Scriptures and are proclaimed by the Catholic Church. The doctrine of salvation in the Church rests upon the fact that the members of Christ's family in faith have the Spirit of God alive inside of them by grace. We fully believe that eternal life begins now, with incorporation into Christ, and not merely when we breathe our last breath. Catholics often invoke the Holy Spirit before prayer, spiritual reading and Scripture study. However, this personal invocation does not demean or reputiate the corporate role of the Holy Spirit in the appointed teachers and shepherds of the Church. Notice that Paul writes, "we" have received, not just "I" received. When Christians use the plural, they are speaking of the fellowship of believers in the Church and all her levels of vocation and service.

4. The abiding presence of Christ in the Church as he had promised (Matthew 28:20).

Hooper: I shall quote the verse: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Note there's nothing in there concerning the Roman Catholic Church. Verse 20 simply proves we are to obey Him (not Rome), and follow His commandments (not Rome's), and HE, Jesus Christ, is with us to the end (Not Rome). "Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5

The problem you have is that you have lost any real historical sense. The only Church that fully goes back to the Apostolic age is the Catholic Church, although the Orthodox churches have some claim of their own depending upon how one views their breech from the See of Peter. The early Church would only become Roman with the death of Peter and the transfer of the Mother See to Rome. The word CATHOLIC simply means universal or worldwide. Jesus only established one Church and we find that community, century after century, in Catholicism. Protestants err greviously in thinking that the true church consisted of unknown and/or underground groups of Baptists who had their bibles beamed down from some star trek angels. The Lord has promised never to forsake his Church, something that you could not do.