Hooper Debate 6 - Questions About Purgatory

PURGATORY

Matthew 12:32: And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age [world] or in the age [world] to come. (Some sins can therefore be forgiven after death.)

HOOPER: Again, private interpretation. Go back one more verse. (31) "Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." How do you get that there will be "some sins can be forgiven after death?" You just called Jesus a liar, for Jesus said ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE FORGIVEN.." There's only ONE exception.....except those who blaspheme against that Holy Ghost. No where in the Bible does it state that there are some sins that can be forgiven after death.

The implication here is clear and the fact that Jews during the time of Christ prayed for the dead makes it even more evident. There is nothing of private interpretation here. I am merely using verses to show how the Catholic Church's position is reasonable. Sin is only unforgivable if it is mortal and we die. The mystery of Purgatory is not about a second chance given to egregious sinners. It is about the saints who are perfected as they approach the throne of God. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to deny or to ridicule as demonic some action of God. If God has indeed showered his Holy Spirit upon the Church, then you yourself "might" be guilty of blaspheming divine intervention by attacking the Church and the work of the Spirit.

HOOPER: Produce the Scriptures, please. The Bible says, "....it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:' not a special time for forgiveness. (Heb. 9:27)

The Church also teaches that at death there is a particular judgment and at the consummation of all things, the final judgment. The Catholic teaching of purgation for some does not deny or threaten this truth. At the moment of death, some souls are directed to heaven and others to hell. All souls that undergo purgation are directed to heaven. Those in hell cannot be helped.

HOOPER: Matthew states, "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." It's clear there is only ONE sin that will not be forgiven in "THIS WORLD" and in the "WORLD TO COME."

The intimation is even clearer in the Greek. While you are certainly free to believe whatever you want, yours is the private interpretation while mine rests on the accepted doctrines of a Church safeguarded by the Holy Spirit for two thousand years.

HOOPER: Again, comparing Scripture with Scripture (without private interpretation), the "world" is described throughout the Old and New Testament as the coming Millennial reign of Christ, ON EARTH (Matt. 13:39; 13:49; 24:13; Mark 10:30), which will have literal rulers (Matt. 19) and literal transformations in nature (Isa. 11, Rom. 8).

So you are one of these fundamentalist millennialists I have heard about who believe in a thousand year reign of Christ. It is no wonder you disagree about the meaning of Christ's kingdom.

HOOPER: So the "this world" is at the time when Jesus was on the face of this earth, and the world to come is the next time He is on the face of this earth RULING for one thousand years. (See Rev. 20) But this isn't the end! This sin of blasphemy (often called the "unpardonable sin") is defined as SPEAKING. In Mark 3:30, the Holy Spirit defines what the unpardonable sin is. "Because they SAID, He hath an unclean spirit." (see vs. 30 and 31 together). So at the time Jesus is saying this, He says that sin will not be forgiven in THIS WORLD (at the time he was on the face of this earth), and in the WORLD to COME (the future Millennial Reign when He will be back on this earth.). So if somebody is to commit this sin, they would have to do it by SPEAKING, just as they did when He was here at the first Advent.

What you say here is so convoluted that I cannot make heads or tails of what you are saying. The sin is not speaking as such but speaking in a disparaging way about the work of the Spirit. If the hand of God is indeed operating in the Catholic Church-- in her proclamation, teachings, rituals and discipleship, then those who speak against her separate themselves from the saving grace which Christ bestows through the instrumentality of the Church. It is one thing to say, "I disagree," you go to the exterme of positing the demonic. You condemn the Church in language reminescent of the Pharisees and scribes who condemned the miraculous work of Jesus as the work of Be-elzebul.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15: . . . each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

HOOPER: This has nothing to do with the fanciful invention of purgatory. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, sins are not are judged, it's WORKS that are judged. Did you ever hear "good job" and "bad job?" Let's compare Scripture with Scripture.

Huh? But you said that we are saved by faith and not by works? You cannot have it both ways. Yes, our works are judged and we will receive our just reward. The message of purgation seems clear, ". . . though he himself will be save, but only as through fire."

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." - 1 Cor. 3:13-15

"....For we shall al stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Rom. 14:10)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10)

"Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water" (Num. 31:23).

HOOPER: This has nothing to do with "burning in a fictitious placed called purgatory. The person's salvation is not even in question (If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved)!

Actually, this is what purgatory is about. The person's salvation is not in question. Every person who endures purgation is already a saint. The poor souls are all destined for heaven. Did you think that they could go to hell? Are you thinking of purgatory as a kind of hell? This would be incorrect.

HOOPER: The fire never even touches him! Sir Jenkins, do you remember Lot? He was "saved by fire" i.e. the fire never touched him. In the context of Baptism, remember Noah and his family? Noah and his family were dry and stayed alive; it was the wet ones who died outside the protection of the ark. Note that what is being tested by fire are "works," not people! No person has to be purged by fire to be cleansed from sins. The purging of sins is done by blood not fire. (Heb. 1:3; 9:14)

The fire of God's love must touch us all. It does not burn the saints of heaven. It burns away within us that which does not belong to God. You confuse analogies with blood and fire and thus reckon together incorrectly purgation with salvation. I notice that you work hard to dismiss these verses, but really say nothing substantial about them.

2 Maccabees 12:45-46: (This is one of the Old Testament books omitted from the Protestant Bible). But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

HOOPER: The support for purgatory comes from the Apocrypha. It is not considered Scripture by both Bible Believing Christians and the Jewish people. It is also a fact that no serious Jew or born again Christian gave two cents worth of consideration about the Apocryphal books, only the Roman Catholic Church did, who added the books to the Bible by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.

Actually, the Orthodox also include the Catholic books and they broke away in schism in the 12th century. No, the Catholic collection of books constituted the legitimate Scriptures of the Christian world until the Protestant Reformation. The Old Testament canon had been accepted by the Church with no debate, from the earliest days.

HOOPER: The word "apocrypha" itself means, "not genuine; spurious; counterfeit," the definition of the word declares the nature of the books. For that matter, even Jesus doesn't recognize the Apocrypha. He never quoted it, never read it, never defended it, and never called it Scriptures.

Actually, the Septuagint, which included the Old Testament books accepted by Jesus is the version of the Scriptures quoted by Jesus and others in the New Testament writings. These books were in the Greek version of the Scriptures and the Gentile Church quickly embraced it as Holy Scripture. A first century Jewish rabbi edited the Old Testament books limiting the historical range, the Palestinian location, and insisting upon texts available in Hebrew. Given that the early Christians had embraced the larger Greek canon, the Jews who were persecuting them preferred distinct Scriptures from what they saw as a new sect, the Christian Church.

HOOPER: I can prove to you he only recognized the Hebrew Old Testament, written in Hebrew.

You prove nothing except your ignorance of both God's living Word and of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

HOOPER: The Hebrew Old Testament contains three sections. They are: the "Torah," the "Nabhim," and the "Kethubim."Each of these sections are called the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Psalms). The books contained in these three sections are: (The Torah) Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. (The Nabhim) Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Johan, Micah, Nahum, Zephaniah, Haggai, Habbakuk, Zechariah, and Malachi. (The Kethubim) Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and 1 and 2 Chronicles. This is the Canon of Scripture the Holy Spirit has fixed concerning the Old Testament.

Actually, there was some disagreement among the Jews about the Hebrew canon. A rabbi redactor would eliminate a number of books that belonged to the oldest copies of these Scriptures. The elimination of certain books from the Christian bible was not the work of the Holy Spirit but of the Protestant reformer, Martin Luther. He rejected First and Second Maccabees (historical books like 1 Kings and Chronicles), the latter because it supported the Catholic practice of praying for the dead. Wisdom and Sirach would be listed with Proverbs. Tobit is not unlike Job. Judith is another heroic woman like Esther. Baruch is prophecy like Jeremiah.

The Holy Spirit did indeed fix the canon, but with the Catholic books, and by the Catholic Church at the council of Hippo in 393 AD and again by Trent in 1546 AD.

HOOPER: Whenever Jesus referred to anything written, he was referring to those Scriptures.

Actually, whenever Jesus cites the Old Testament the text comes from the Greek Scriptures which included the Catholic books. The Bible for the apostolic community, particularly in the Gentile world where Paul preached, included the books that make up the Catholic Old Testament!

HOOPER: Now, over in Luke 24:44, Jesus makes His canonical statement when referring to those Scriptures, ".....all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the LAW of Moses, and in the PROPHETS, and in the PSALMS, concerning me." It is obvious Jesus had no use for the Roman Catholic Apocrypha.

There is no logic here at all and nothing obvious about such a rejection. There are many books that Jesus does not directly cite; however, we would not eliminate them from our bibles. You are playing games here and only the most gullible would buy it. How can you speak this way? Do you not fear God?

HOOPER: The inspiration of Scripture had ceased from the ending of Malachi until Matthew.

The inspiration of Scripture did not cease until the death of the last apostle, John. In any case, this would not be sufficient to eliminate all seven books. The elimination of Maccabbees was for somewhat arbitrary reasons and this decision was not decisive for everyone. It would be a part of the Christian bible until the Protestant reformation. Are you saying that there was no true bible for the first two-thirds of the Church's history? I do not think so.

HOOPER: During that time there were no prophets from God to declare His word. In fact, the book of Maccabees itself declares there were no prophets, and therefore the inspiration of Scripture had ceased.

It is not a prophetic book as such but is considered an historical one. There are other such books in the Old Testament as well. Distinctions need to be made.

HOOPER: It states, "There had not been such great distress in Israel since the time prophets ceased to appear among the people" (1 Maccabees 9:27). But then again, I can find this truth in the Scriptures. The prophets ceased with Zechariah. Jesus speaks of his death in Matthew 23:35 as closing the prophetic era (from righteous Abel to Zacharias), thus the four hundred silent years begin.

You are confusing prophecy with inspiration and revelation. They are not the same thing.

HOOPER: The canon of the Old Testament Scripture ends with the martyrdom of Zechariah. However, the teaching of purgatory is supposedly supported by 2 Maccabees 12:46, as you stated above. "It is holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins."

It is only one of many Scriptures cited. However, even if one should consider it as apocryphal and historical, as the Anglicans do, it would still show the mentality of the Jews close to our Lord's day regarding the dead and our prayers on their behalf.

HOOPER: This is interesting considering that the passage is in reference to those who were guilty of idolatry! "But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear (2 Macc. 12:40).

Yes, they seemed to be guilty of superstition. But the manner of sin does not change the fact that prayers were offered for them.

HOOPER: The men for whom prayer was offered had died because they were idolaters, and according to Roman Catholicism, idolatry is a mortal sin which would send them to Hell, not purgatory, but yet the verse is used to prove we are to pray for the dead to shorten their time and degrees of suffering in purgatory by using those guilty of idolatry!

Excuse me, where in Roman Catholicism do we say that all superstition is mortal sin? False worship or idolatry is indeed serious matter and the person who commits it could indeed be in mortal sin. However, as with so many superstitions, it is hard to know how thoroughly a person may have given himself to it. God judges. We pray for the dead. If they are in hell, then they cannot be helped. If they are not, then certainly superstition is a stain that must be purged from the soul. We pray but God is the one who perfects his children or punishes them.

HOOPER: The Apocrypha not only contradicts our God-given Scriptures, it contradicts itself. For example, in the two books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes dies three different deaths, and not in the same places!

And why are there two versions of creation in Genesis, one where Adam is made first and the second that speaks of the couple? The bible is not meant to be understood like a videotape on the news. You can find many apparent contradictions in the bible, although they do not diminish the truth value of God's Word.

HOOPER: The Bible mentions nothing about purgatory. Romans 6:23 says, "the wages of sin is death," not a limited time spent in purgatory.

The Scriptures listed here on its behalf is evidence that the bible is not silent about the mystery of purgatory.

HOOPER: In the Bible, the soul is cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ, when he is alive, not dead. Once death comes, then judgment, not an undefined limited time getting cleansed from sin or forgiveness of sins. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb. 9:27) Nowhere does Scripture say a person is cleansed by "purifying fire." Fire has to do with Hell.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

You repeat yourself. The Catholic Church teaches that judgment comes with death. If we are in mortal sin and have broken our friendship with God, then the condition of alienation is made permanent. Hell is real.

HOOPER: Rather, a person is cleansed by His BLOOD. "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). Furthermore, "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission" (Heb. 9:22). Thus, cleansing doesn't come by "purifying fire," but only by the "blood of Jesus Christ."

We are washed clean in the saving blood of Jesus. This is Catholic teaching, too. No one can be saved by prayers for the dead. The souls in purgatory are already saved. Purgatory simply recognizes that even among the friends of Christ, there may be some elements of resistence-- venial sin, bad habits, etc.

HOOPER: No sinner who accepts Jesus Christ as their Saviour will have to undergo any further purging.

Where is this in the bible?

HOOPER: Jesus said "It is FINISHED."

This refers to Christ's redemptive work. It is still left to us to accept or reject what he has done for us.

HOOPER: It is finished because Jesus already did the PURGING, "when he had by himself PURGED our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3).

No, you are confusing two different things. Jesus dies for the elect. He redeems us from the devil. We had been made subject to sin and death. Now we can accept Christ and his saving work in faith. This faith is realized in obedience and charity to Christ, not just in a verbal profession. The breech between heaven and hell is healed. Purgation is a question seen apart from salvation and damnation. There is no purging of the damned. Some of the saints, but not all, experience a purification or a perfection under the fire of God's love-- the completion of their transformation-- so that they may truly be perfect as Christ and his heavenly Father are perfect.

HOOPER: If you are a born again believer, your sins have been purged. If you are a born again believer and die, you will be in the presence of the Lord," To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8), not undergoing a man made purgatory fire!

Nothing is said here about the manner of justification, but I suspect that you mean by imputation and not by transformation. It is the height of egoism for people like yourself, so filled with enmity, to feel that you need no further cleansing prior to entering heaven. You would populate heaven with sinners only born again in a juridical way, but not really. Your very presence would reduce heaven to the resemblance of hell.

Revelation 21:27: Nothing defiled can enter Heaven.

HOOPER: Read, read, read. Why don't you quote the whole verse? "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev. 21:27)

I have no problem with the longer citation. The process of purification or perfection that begins in this life no doubt continues in the life to come. For some reason you seem to think that you are perfect already.

HOOPER: I don't know about you, but my name is written in the "book of life" (Phil. 4:3).

You have already said that I an unregenerated and thus damned and not in the book of life. You are presumptuous about many things.

HOOPER: The Bible reference you quote is to those who come out of the Tribulation and Millennium.

When Christ comes it will be for the consummation of all things. I do not subscribe to your picture of the end-times.

HOOPER: And the reason for that is because those who come in, come in to get what will give them eternal life (Rev. 22:14). They must eat from the "tree of life" to get eternal life. They finally obtain what was forbidden to Adam in Genesis 3:22-24. The Christians are already there, the church, the "Lamb's wife" (Rev. 21:9) and they already have eternal life, they don't need to eat from the "tree of life" (1 John 5:12). Thus, the passage refers to people on the earth in eternity who go into New Jerusalem to finally partake of the "tree of life." It's all right there in black and white if you'll take the time to read it and believe what you read.

Even my Protestant friends are shaking their heads about this. You must belong to the most fundamentalist branch of the Baptist church. Is it even Baptist? I do not know even what to say about all this. Purgation is not in reference to the tree of life or eternal life, but of perfection for those who would come into God's presence. At the consummation of all things, there will only be two realities: heaven and hell.

While many Protestant critics reject Purgatory because the word does not appear in the bible, the actual reason is that such a teaching would make their view of justification by faith alone untenable.

HOOPER: No, the reason why the Roman Catholic Church made up and introduced a place called Purgatory in the year 593 A.D. and declared it an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church at the Second Council of Lyons in 1274 A.D. is because they could not accept the fact that the Bible teaches that for anybody alive can have eternal salvation as as a free gift! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Eph. 2:8,9). "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 6:23).

Defining a truth of faith is not the same as inventing. First and Second Lyons, the Council of Florence, and later Trent all talk about it. Like the Jews, the early Christians prayed for the dead. This is an ancient practice. In addition to Second Maccabees, Jewish rabbis also interpreted Zechariah 13:9 in terms of purification in the afterlife (Shammai School): "I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested." I have already made reference to Matthew 12:32 and one might also cite Paul's prayer for Onesiphorus in 2 Timothy 1:18: "may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day". The ancient fathers of the Church are also clear about it: Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Ephram, Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, Caesarius of Arles and Gregory the Great.

This Catholic teaching sustains our understanding of intercessory prayer for the dead, meritorious works done in Christ in reparation for sin, the temporal punishment due to sin, and transformation over imputation in Christ. Our justification is not a mere juridical rendering from God, but the elect are made into a new creation. They are changed. Purgatory allows this transformation to come to completion. The Scriptures uphold such a teaching, despite the protestations of so-called bible-Christians.

HOOPER: I notice you cannot give scriptural proof text for your above statement. What you say is just what it is, "Catholic teaching," not "Bible teaching."

I have already given plenty of Scriptures. Although, Catholic hermeneutics allows for living Sacred Tradition as a source for doctrine. You may not accept this, but that is your losss. That is why any discussion or debate between a Catholic and the likes of you must always begin and end with the subject of the Church. Because we do not accept the other's starting points, and I would contend that yours is intellectually untenuable, we will always talk somewhat at cross-purposes.

HOOPER: Justification IS a judicial act of God whereby He declares the sinner to be righteous (Rom. 3:26). Even in the Book of Galatians Paul says, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Actually, Protestants like yourself do not hold that justification is a "judicial act" but rather what they call a "juridical" one. It is wrong still, but you should at least know what to call it. You have to be more careful what you copy from your anti-Catholic friends, in whatever books and leaflets you put on par with God's Word.

HOOPER: In this same Book it says, "And the scriptures, foreseeing that God would JUSTIFY the heathen THROUGH FAITH..." (Gal. 3:8) In this same Book it says, "But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" (Gal. 3:11; cf. Rom. 4:2, Gal. 2:16). Christ paid the full penalty for our sins, and those who are born again are completely justified. (Rom. 5:9, 5:18; Eph. 2:8,9; Rom. 3:24; Hebrews 9:26; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:20; Rom. 3:28; Rom. 5:1; Gal. 3:24, etc. etc.) Just because you are not sure about your eternal life and standing before God does not mean you must make everybody else unsure.

You offer circular arguments that repeat your assertions and misinterpret Scripture. Catholics believe in the bible, but to our ears, the meaning of Scripture is very different from yours. The postulating of a lot of verses gives the impression of erudition and understanding where you make no argument at all. It is like a child who thinks he can win an argument by yelling louder than his friends. These verses are not topical to a discussion about purgatory and prayer for the dead. Rather, we should be restricting ourselves to these matters of dispute:

Are the saints of heaven really made into new creations or is the justification merely imputed in a juridical (legal) manner?

Is it sufficient to dismiss the guilt of sinners in heaven without some remission of temporal punishment and the eradication of sinful inclinations?

If the prayers of the living have an effect in the purification of the righteous (not the damned) how is it so?

Do not the saints of heaven, on a metaphysical level (not just juridical), have to be made perfect and Christ and his heavenly Father are perfect?

You really make no attempt to answer these questions. You seem to be saying that the saints of heaven remain in their sins but are no longer held liable. If the least sin is offensive to God and cannot have any place in heaven, then it would seem that most people (in your scenerio) should go to hell. Purgatory, for Catholics is more a sign of God's mercy than of his justice. That which would otherwise be damned, is made perfect and given a place in the eternal kingdom.

HOOPER: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13) .

Yes, that is the rationale given by John and seems to imply that he was aware of his divinely inspired role.

The bible teaches that some sins are forgiven in the world to come, on the other side of death.

HOOPER: This has already been addressed.

Addressed, but not challenged.

We are not talking here about mortal sin that damns the soul. The Scriptures also indicate that some, although not all, are saved in the next world by fire. Literally the fire of God's love purifies his own and makes them ready for heaven.

HOOPER: Again, you have no Scriptures to confirm YOUR belief. Again, see comment above. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, sins are NOT addressed, it's his WORKS that are judged.

The Scriptures were given earlier in this discussion. Again, having said this I fault you for dismissing sacred tradition. You argue in a crippled fashion by cutting off an essential font of revelation to the Church. Once again, I think it is funny that you do mental gymnastics here to say that works are judged when you argue that only faith matters. You cannot have it both ways. Works, by the way, can be good, neutral or evil. In that sense, evil works can be counted as sins. Good works are counted as meritorious.

In addition, the value of intercessory prayer for the dead is advocated by the bible.

HOOPER: Where? I thought so. Only in the Apocrypha, but not in the Scriptures.

It is not the Apocrypha but the Deuterocanonical Book, 2 Maccabbees. It was only removed from the Christian bible after the fact, not prior to the argument about prayer for the dead and purgatory. Literally what happened was, your Protestant forebears of a few centuries ago censored the bible to substantiate their arguments.

Like a bride who wants to look her best before meeting her bridegroom, Purgatory allows us to undergo a cleansing or purgation of any residual stain-- venial sin, the temporal punishment due to sin, and the tendency (habit) to sin.

HOOPER: Scriptures say nothing about having to undergo a cleansing or purgation of any sin after death. It's already been done. Praise God!

How has it been done? You mean you never commit sin? You are not prone to rash judgment or anger? Do you not know bigotry against those who think differently than you? Are you free of all sins of the flesh?

HOOPER: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;" -Col. 2:13

A Catholic can know forgiveness as well, however, that does not mean that he has achieved spiritual perfection. We can fall back into serious sin, God forbid. We may also be plagued by lesser offenses, which are still offensive in God's sight.

HOOPER: "For by ONE offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." -Heb. 10:14

Yes, the redemptive work of Christ has been accomplished. Final sanctification requires that we run the race and receive the crown that awaits us on the other side of the grave. We are called to cooperate with Christ's work and his grace.

HOOPER: "But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God;" Hebrews 10:12

Yes, Jesus ascended to the Father and now sits at the right hand of God to judge the living and the dead. This is also Catholic doctrine. Jesus is the one high priest and he offers himself as a victim in the one sacrifice that heals the rift between God and man.

HOOPER: "In whom we HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of his grace;" -Eph. 1:7
Praise God!

Yes, we are redeemed through his blood, the immaculate Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Catholics say or sing this at every Mass. We know full well the meaning of his paschal sacrifice. It is Jesus that makes the forgiveness of sins possible. However, that is on the periphery of the given debate here.

HOOPER: When the jailer asked Paul and Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" they did not answer by saying, "Well, I hate to tell you this, but because Christ did not forgive all punishment for sin on the cross, chances are very high that you will end up in purgatory where there needs to be further purging of your sins by fire. You see, once you are saved by being sprinkled with Jericho water, you must pray so you won't spend a long time in the purgatory fire. You must pray to Mary, that's Jesus' mother, and pray for the dead so they can get out too. We are not yet sure how many prayers it will take, so be faithful to pray the rosary every day, and you must ask Mary to intercede for you. Also remember that you should abstain from eating meats on Fridays, go to a Catholic priest for confession on Saturdays, attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and make sure you fast one hour before Mass before you eat Jesus' body and blood. If you make the sign of the cross, you are granted an indulgence of three years. If you make the same holy sign with blessed water, you may gain an indulgence of seven years.[2] Oh! Indulgences are also granted for visits of the faithful to various Catholic shrines. Don't forget to pray for the pope while you are at it. If you are faithful in all I say and the many things I tell you in the future, under proper conditions, indulgences will also be applied to the dead in purgatory for the reduction of the degree of suffering and the length of time it must be endured. Don't forget that you can also BUY ($$$) indulgences to get some poor soul out of purgatory." Etc. Etc. Etc.
What did Paul and Silas answer? They simply said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31 It is that simple!

This response is almost funny, if it were not for the meanness and deep-seated anger. It is certainly true that there is no enemy of the Church as terrible as one who was once a Catholic.

The story actually confirms the Catholic stance, not in purgatory, but in the necessity for faith to be accompanied by baptism. Notice what Paul answers, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved." Note here something of the Church's communitarian stance. His faith would suffice to bring in his whole household-- family and servants. This is not a privatized faith at all. The apostles then "spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house." We are told that "he and his family were baptized at once." It is probable that this even included children! Baptism remits all sin, original and personal. We do not know the rest of their story. Probably they became a part of the church community established there. They might have also eventually witnessed with their lives.

You make much about many other practices as if they are on the same level with faith and baptism. Catholics would not claim such.

Turning to your apparent mockery, all Catholics aim for heaven and we leave it in God's hands as to whether we will require spiritual perfection on the other side of the grave. Many suffer their purgatory here by joining their crosses to that of Jesus and enduring all things for his sake.

They are not sprinkled with Jericho water but they are filled with faith and are baptized. If it were not essential, it would make no sense to do it. It is the new rite of initiation for a new People of God. No longer is the sign of entry circumcision, but baptism by water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

No doubt Paul recounted the story of Christ and Mary was and is an important part of that story. She would become a mother to the Church community and they would love her in imitation of Christ who loved her.

They would assemble with others no doubt to celebrate the Lord's Supper and the renewal of this new covenant in the blood of Christ.

While they would not speak of indulgences as such, they would proclaim the news of God's favor to them which is the greatest indulgence of all. Paul and Silas could have run away, but chose to witness to him instead.