Hooper Debate 8 - Questions About Forgiveness

THE ABSOLUTION OF PRIESTS

2 Corinthians 5:20: So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

HOOPER: You should read it in context. This is not authority solely given over to Roman Catholic priests. The letter is addressed to the church at Corinth (see chapter 1). He is addressing it to all believers. "17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

I have no problem with the longer citation, however, it does NOT stipulate that all have the same role in the ministry of reconciliation. Certainly, we are all commissioned to proclaim the Good News of Christ and direct others to seek his mercy. But, the text I cited makes a distinction between the "we" (Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God and Timothy our brother) and the "you" (the church of God that is in Corinth). See the introduction of the letter for this clarification. Paul is talking about his apostolic ministry and it would be erroneous to collapse the distinction as you do. A contextual approach to Scripture is more than just taking a few verses together, it is interpreting a passage in the context of the writing as a whole. Here is a case in point where your private interpretation fails you. Certainly we are all called to become ambassadors for Christ, although not in the same way as the Church's ministers. However, the ministry of reconciliation has grown and developed in the Church in such a way that the priests of today (successors like the bishops to the apostles) are vital to the spiritual needs of God's people.

HOOPER: Verse 19 shows God gives the peoples of this world the chance to be saved. Salvation is a free gift. A Christian has a part in that we have been "given the ministry of reconciliation" (vs 18), and "the word of reconciliation" (vs 19) has been "committed unto us." The "us" has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic religion.

The keys are given to the Church and particularly to the apostles to loosen or bind from sin. Verse 19 speaks about the redemptive work of Jesus, but the fact that the "message of salvation" is entrusted to me is evidence of the Church's participation in saving souls. Everyone is the passage was Catholic. St. Paul and the Corinthians were Catholic, even if that term was not used, because there was no other Christian community established by our Lord.

HOOPER: At Calvary Christ made it all possible to reconcile sinful man to God. He returned to Heaven and left all of us the task of telling the world how to be reconciled to God. That is why we are called "ambassadors for Christ."

Actually, it is more complicated than that. Jesus did reconcile all things by the power of his cross. This is correct. This kerygma of salvation or proclamation is immediately entrusted to the apostles who spread it to others. Faith and baptism in Christ brings full remission of sins. Anyone can baptize, including a lay person. However, second penance and later auricular confession required a minister of the Church, a priest or bishop. The "word of reconciliation" was more than just a news item shared among acquaintances. It was evocative. This was so much so that the apostles and their successors would be able to echo the words of Jesus, "Go in peace, your sins are forgiven."

HOOPER: Reconciliation is made between man and God when man believes the gospel of Christ. Once a man places his trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins because of what Christ did on the cross for him, he has the righteousness of God "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor. 5:21) What that verse actually means is that when Jesus Christ died on the cross, our sins were credited to Him. He took our sins, and in exchange He gives us His righteousness.

Repentance opens the way for faith. Faith in Christ, exerted by the mind and will in response to God's revelation and call, and manifested in the sacramental life and the life of charity brings many avenues for mercy and grace. The Catholic Church does not deny that the real acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior opens the door to reconciliation with God. The work of redemption has been accomplished by Christ's cross, just as the verse here acknowledges. Where we take exception is over the matter of how God's mercy can be fully accessed and upon the impact of sinfulness in the life of believers. Note that the sacrament of penance is not given to the newly baptized nor generally to those outside the Catholic-Christian faith. It is a means to renew and if need be to restore the saving grace that comes with true faith and baptism. No doubt you would argue, "Once saved, always saved." Certain Protestant theologians would consequently argue that if one were to be found guilty later of serious sin, then the initial faith was a lie or deceit. Others would even contend that personal sinfulness would no longer matter, since even the "saved" remain sinners who are only imputed as righteous. The Catholic response is that a saving faith can sour. The fact that baptism can only be offered once shows that Catholics concur in the singular nature of an initial profession of faith in Christ Jesus. Whatever happens, we are members of the Church and are regarded as Christians. However, a Christian of any stripe can play Judas and betray Christ. Serious sin would have a person forfeit sanctifying grace. It is a repudiation of the gift of salvation that comes from Christ.

HOOPER: Righteousness refers to the perfections of God, and He gives that to us, and He gives that to us as a FREE GIFT. What it actually boils down to is that Jesus got what He did not deserve, our sins, and we get what we don't deserve, His righteousness. The Bible says, "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (Romans 4:24,25).

The terms "righteousness" and "justification" are often translated from the same word. God does indeed begin to share something of his life with us. Yes, this is a free gift that no one can earn or deserve. This is also Catholic teaching. Christ bore our sins, he made himself into a sin-offering on our behalf. It is in Jesus that we find favor with God. It should be noted here that the word "imputed" was not used by Paul in the same way it was understood by Martin Luther and subsequent Protestants.

A better translation of Romans 4:(23) 24-25 would be this: "But it was not for him alone that it was written that 'it was credited to him'; it was also for us, to whom it will be credited, who believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification."

Note that both translations, even with Paul including himself, states that the final imputation or credit is in the future. Notice what he says in the next verse: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access [by faith] to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God" (Romans 5:1). Justification is defined as access to God. Final salvation or its fullness belongs to the future, what is understood here as Christian "hope".

HOOPER: So justification doesn't simply mean, "Just as if I never sinned," it means more than that. It means just as if I lived a complete life of obedience and holiness. This is only because Jesus Christ is my substitute, and He meets all the requirements of God's requirements for me.

What Hooper says here runs entirely against the biblical text just explained. She equates justification and the peace it brings with final salvation. She utterly collapses the meaning of hope that Paul talks about. She makes the human person utterly passive, like a puppet on a string. If she would be consistent, then there is no cooperation with Christ, no real transformation, and no need for hope. Everything is viewed as a done deal. Her view of faith is made so absolute, that not even baptism is required, despite the biblical mandate. She dismisses it and all the sacraments, including Confession, because personal sin does not matter in her reckoning. Her position would also take the punch out of the moral code, since the quality of discipleship means nothing after professing faith in Jesus. I would say, no, no, and no.

Jesus dies on my behalf, and for yours, but he still wants us to cooperate with him in the saving work. He respects both human freedom and capricious human weakness. Jesus, himself, has instituted a Church and empowered its ministers, to help believers to remain in good standing and to preserve Christian hope.

HOOPER: When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, a transaction takes place. God is crediting (imputing) to you what you don't deserve, and therefore it is a "free gift." Remember, Jesus got what He didn't deserve, our sins, and we get what we don't deserve, His righteousness. Now, I, as an ambassador for Christ, have just demonstrated the verse in 2 Cor. 5. When I got saved, I became a new creature in Christ. As a Christian I have been given the ministry of reconciliation and the word of reconciliation. My duty is to show you that you can be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

Again, I have no problem with the free gift element. But we are creatures who live in time. We must accept that gift, not just at any one moment, but consistently throughout our lives-- particularly at the last moment of mortal life. Here Hooper is talking about 2 Corinthians 5: 21: "For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him." Here is what the notes in the revised New American (Catholic) Bible has to say about it: "This is a statement of God's purpose, expressed paradoxically in terms of sharing and exchange of attributes. As Christ became our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30), we become God's righteousness (cf verses 14-15). There is nothing here about her being given the ministry of reconciliation.

John 20:21-23: Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

HOOPER: This is where the Roman Catholic Church uses this passage as authority for its erroneous teaching that only Roman Catholic priests have the power to forgive sins.

This Scripture texts refers to something of Pentecost. The eleven, not all the disciples, are given the power to forgive sins. Thomas who is absent would be included when Jesus appeared on another ocassion. It is very explicit "If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven: if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained." This minsitry of the apostles was passed down to the bishops and priests. There is no ministry even remotely similar in the Baptist churches and despite her attestation here, no absolution that Hooper could or would give to others.

HOOPER: I will compare Scripture with Scripture to show how absurd this private interpretation really is. Scripture with Scripture yield the following cross references:

Notice that since she cannot repudiate the given text, she immediately races to include pieces of others to complicate matters and to evade. See Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 for further support of the Catholic claim.

HOOPER: "......and without shedding of blood is no remission." (Heb. 9:22)

Drawing a parallel between the old and new covenants, this verse is actually in reference to the Jewish law: "According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." The authority that Christ gives the apostles and the efficacy of all the sacraments, including Confession, is the saving blood of Jesus, the blood of the new covenant. Note that Jesus makes reference to it at the Last Supper when he institutes the Eucharist and Priesthood.

HOOPER: "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins" (Heb. 10:18, 11)

This citation is turned around a little bit:

Hebrews 10:11 - "Every priest (Jewish) stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But this one (Christ) offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God; . . . ."

Hebrews 10:18 - "Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer offering for sin."

I have mentioned before how all priests in the Catholic Church participate in the one priesthood of the High Priest Jesus. All the sacraments flow from his paschal mystery. The Mass is considered to be an unbloody re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ. Everything comes back to Jesus and his self-oblation on our behalf.

The oblations of the Jewish priests were constantly repeated but could not do what they attempted to do, make satisfaction for sin. The sacrifice of Jesus accomplishes this and is re-presented as a renewal just as he commanded at the Last Supper. Jesus died once-and-for-all but that saving event is extended in time and space in the liturgy so that we can be there-- so that we can offer ourselves with Christ to the Father as an acceptable sacrifice.

Notice what Paul says regarding the sin of apostacy: "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Note here that judgment (damnation) can come to someone who has received the truth and been a member of the Church professing faith in Jesus. The early Church was much more reserved with the ministry of reconciliation after faith and baptism than it is today.

HOOPER: "....through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39)

Again, a parallel is made between the old and the new dispensations. Verse 36 speaks about how David the king served the will of God but then died and knew corruption. However, verses 37 to 39 refer to the Messiah and son of David, Jesus who conquers the grave and thus has the power to forgive sins and to bring justification. This is also Catholic belief, but is an entirely different subject from the question of a mechanism or an authority through which the mercy of Christ can be experienced. Further, justification which flows from the work of redemption and our faith is not identical to our hope of salvation and final perseverance.

HOOPER: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." (Col. 1:14)

As with the other citations here, this is in reference to the general work of Christ, about which Catholics and Protestants mostly agree. "He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14). There is nothing here that invalidates the ministry of reconciliation as practiced in the Catholic Church.

HOOPER: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matt. 26:28).

These are the words of Jesus at the Last Supper. This ritual is given to the Church by Jesus for the constant renewal of the covenant. Our Lord is not talking about metaphorical blood or even just about the blood of the cross. He is speaking about the sacrifice of the Mass and the transformation of bread and wine into his body and blood. Just as this sacrament can bring the forgiveness of sins, all the sacraments continue to have this affect. "Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins' (Matthew 26:27-28). Here is a classic case where the lack of context can change the meaning of a verse and shows how disingenuous such anti-Catholic debaters actually are.

HOOPER: "Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." (Acts 2:38)

Of course, Hooper insists that baptism is insignificant, even though here we are told that it brings the remission of sins. It is the Catholic Church that says that both original sin and personal sins are forgiven in baptism. Neither Hooper nor her church claims such a truth, although she will try to use the Scripture against the sacrament of penance. Baptism is a one-time sacrament. The Church's ministry of reconciliation is to assist believers who sin afterwards.

HOOPER: ".....Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past..." (Rom. 3:24-25).

Hooper gives us only the tail end of verse 24. It reads in full: "They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, . . .

(verse 26) through the forebearance of God--to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus."

Yes, we are saved not simply by faith alone but by grace alone. Jesus is our sin-offering and just as we saw in the reference to repentance and baptism, his saving blood forgives sins.

The priests of the Catholic Church administer the sacrament of Christ's body and blood to believers. When they offer absolution, they are literally invoking the power of Christ's blood to wash the penitent and make him or her clean. Again, there is no contrdition here. It is still a free gift that no one deserves.

HOOPER: Just by comparing Scripture with Scripture, the following conclusions are:

HOOPER: Remission of sins is by shed blood of Jesus Christ. No priest was ever able to remit anyones sins. Remission of sins lies in the atonement of Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:1-12 also states that this atonement is a ONCE-and-for-all act, which means it never has to be repeated.)

We have looked at the Scriptures and Mrs. Hooper has failed to make her case. Indeed, she has at times helped to make the Catholic case. She knows neither the bible as she should nor what the Catholic Church clearly teaches.

It is a hallmark of Catholic theology that we are redeemed by the cross of Jesus and that he is the immaculate Lamb of God who, as we say at every Mass, takes away the sins of the world. The blood of Christ brings forgiveness and a share in eternal life.

Jesus is the one high priest of the Catholic Church. Because he has the power to forgive sins, and because he has extended his authority to the Church, those ordained men who participate in his priesthood also have the authority to forgive sins. Yes, Jesus dies once-and-for-all and that he will never die again. His saving work is not so much repeated as it is extended or re-presented in the Eucharist. The Lord gave us his Supper, first as an anticipatory sacrifice and now as a means to reach back into human history and to make full access of Calvary.

There was precedent for Confession in the Old Testament. The Jews celebrated ceremonial ablutions, not unlike the washings performed by John the Baptist. Jewish exiles confessed their sins while in Baylonian exile (Baruch 1:13). See also Leviticus 19:20-22. However, the Catholi priest speaks on God's behalf the words of absolution.

Many of the New Testament supports have already been mentioned, like Matthew 16:19; 18:18 and John 20:23. It seems that sins were confessed to the whole congregation in the early days. When anointing the sick, they would confess their sins, receiving from the priests healing and forgiveness (James 5:13-16).

HOOPER: The blood is shed because God forgave sin, not in order to get it forgiven. "note: "sins that are past," exactly as in Hebrews 9:15. God forgave throughout the Old Testament (Exodus 34:7), but could not clear the guilty until Matthew 26:28. Compare Hebrews 10:4). Also note that the John 20:21-23 is not given to the Apostles only. The Bible says there were "disciples" in that room along with the eleven Apostles (John 20:19-20) when that command was given. Proof? See Luke 24:33, "And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,"

The reasoning here is a bit convoluted and it is unclear what Hooper is trying to say. The mercy that God showed in the Old Testament was real but could not reconcile mankind with its creator. Their sacrifices were repeated because they could not bring about the reconciliation which they tried to signify. It is clear that the ministry of reconciliation is given to the apostles and later their successors, although all have an obligation as noted here to be missionaries for Christ-- letting others know that in the Church there is the forgiveness of sins. John 20:21-23 makes mention of disciples but it is unclear as to whether there are others with the apostles. It is possible that women disciples were caring for their needs. Verse 24 alerts us to Thomas being absent and the Lord approaches him on a subsequent visit. The emphasis here is definitely upon the eleven remaining apostles. The reference to Luke is about the men on the road to Emmaus who encounter Jesus in the breaking of the bread and then go back to tell the apostles and disciples. It is faulty hermeneutics to connect that reference to the appearance of the risen Christ to his apostles in John. We know nothing about the immediate time-table and who may have remained or left the upper room. Further, while the apostles are given their specific ministerial powers by Christ, the Pentecost experience embraced the entire apostolic Church.

HOOPER: In the very beginning of your letter to me you complained about others saying, "The misuse of the Scriptures, twisting verses into contrived apologetical schemes for purposes of refutation or to shore up dubious opinions is increasingly common." You do the same of what you accuse others of doing! In spite of the evidence I just presented to you, I hope you don't continue to reject God's word.

I have never rejected God's Word, but neither have I ever betrayed his Church as you have done. It was not enough that you should leave the Church, but you have made yourself an enemy to it. You say you love Christ, and yet the Church is his living mystical Body. In our debate you throw out Scriptures, no doubt with the help of authorities also hostile to the Church, without really understanding them. You do not even understand Catholicism, and again parrot the false strawman arguments of your bigoted masters, as if you never learned anything for yourself while a member of the Church. Over and over again you get the Catholic position wrong, but seek to refute it all the same. I wonder if you are really that good a Protestant, either?

HOOPER: Now to continue with the same passage. As far as "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained," Paul, who was not present in the room, has the same authority. Note his statements to this effect, "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;" In Acts 13:38,39, this authority is illustrated where every Christian has the right to tell any man that he is forgiven or not forgiven, on the bases of what he does with Jesus Christ. "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

The authority is given to the apostles, even those who are made so later on. Judas will be replaced, and the number of apostles will eventually surpass 12. It is not chronicled in Scripture, but no doubt Paul was instructed in the faith and enetered teh rank of apostle following his conversion experience on the road where he was blinded and encountered Christ. Certainly the believers of Antioch instructed him before he became himself an apostle to the nations. Paul is indeed an apostle, and later the apostles will extend their authority to other men, the episcopoi (bishops) and the presbyters (priests). Christ showers the Holy Spirit upon the infant Church and makes it possible for the keys of the kingdom to be properly used.

The reference here to Acts does not challenge ministerial forgiveness. Jesus is always the source of divine mercy. The Catholic Church does not challenge the saving name or blood of Jesus. It is preached and experienced in the life of the Church.

There is another kind of forgiveness, not ministerial, that was practiced among the brethren. We find something of this in the Lord's Prayer when we say, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." If our conversion is real then by forgiving others, we dispose ourselves to divine mercy. We cannot bargain with God. Everything is a gift. If we are a forgiving people then when the Father looks upon us he will see the likeness of his Son and give us a share in his Son's reward.

HOOPER: In the Bible all born again believers are said to be "priests," and called to offer spiritual sacrifices (Heb. 3:1; 13:15; 1 Peter 2:1-5). There is no other priesthood except a priesthood of born again believers (1 Peter 2), so the entire system of the Roman Catholic priests is purely non-Scriptural.

Yes, all baptized believers are part of a royal priesthood, indeed they are a nation of priests. This is Catholic teaching, but it is not the same as ordained or ministerial priesthood. We are all called forth to offer spiritual sacrifices and to make Jesus our one treasure beyond measure. You are wrong tod eny the ministerial priesthood and the apostlic witness and the legacy of the early Church proves you wrong. You continue to misread the bible and err greviously by dismissing the witness of the early Church and 2,000 years of history. The bible talks about presbyters (priests) and episcopoi (bishops). The terminology changes over time but the functions and roles are the same.

Matthew 18:18: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The power to forgive sins is reserved to priests. As long as there is a need for the forgiveness of sins, the priests of the Catholic Church will continue to possess this power from Christ. Christ would not abandon his Church. As long as his Church exists, so will his mercy. The tragedy today is that may opt to remain in their sins. One of the greatestspiritual powers of every priest is neglected. The graces of this sacrament cannot be exaggerated.

Leviticus 19:20-22 / Baruch 1:13 / Numbers 5:6-7 / Psalm 32:5 / Proverbs 28:13 / Isaiah 43:25 / Matthew 16:19; 18:18 / Matthew 3:5-6 / Mark 1:5 / John 20:21-23 / Luke 15:18-19 / James 5:13-16 / Acts 19:18 / 2 Corinthians 2:10; 5:18-20 / 1 John 1:8-9