Hooper Debate 2 - Questions About the Church

PROTESTANT CHURCHES

Hooper: They didn't forsake the church, they forsook the Roman Catholic Church (big difference), and its man made doctrines.

There is only one Church established by our Lord. It is the Catholic Church. All Protestant churches were established by men.

Hooper: You would also do well to know the Biblical meaning of the word "church." The Apostle Paul gives the exact definition of what the one true Church is: "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" -Col. 1:24)

I know full well the meaning of the Church. Just as St. Paul discerned in his conversion on the road, it was revealed that his persecution of the Church was an attack against Jesus Christ. Pope Pius XII wrote extensively about this truth refering to it as the mystery of the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ. Christ is the head and we are the body. St. John speaks of it as the mystery of the vine and the branches. Christ is the vine, and we his Church, are the branches. Priests and bishops of the Catholic Church were teaching and preaching about this from the beginning and we have records reaching back to the earliest centuries. While Catholics would reach out to Protestants as our separated brethren, would spurn the offer and reject the true ecclesial dimension of the Catholic Church.

Hooper: How does one become a part of Christ's body? The Apostle Paul further defines the meaning of the one true Church as having many members, and the only way to be placed in the church is by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water.

Baptism by water does not deny the power of God's Spirit. We are baptized, as our Lord commands in the Gospel of Matthew, as a constitutive element of the Church's mission. Water as such is only water. But baptisms always denote faith and solidarity in the family of God, the Church. Just as circumcision was the rite of initiation for the old law, baptism is the manner of entry into the new People of God, the new Israel, the new Zion, the Church. Our Lord is the one who gives the action efficacy. We become members of the Church and of the body of Christ. We become temples of the Holy Spirit and by the power of grace are born again or made into a new creation, as new Christs. Our sins are forgiven and we are given helping graces to protect and assist us in life and our discipleship.

Hooper: "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

This unity is profound and is not breeched even by the grave. However, you reduce the saints to dust. There is a variation of atheism in your thinking. You protest against the miraculous at every opportunity.

Hooper: 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many." 1 Cor. 12:12-14.

The message of salvation is a universal gift. All are called to be one in Jesus Christ. This unity is already realized in the Catholic Church. While we live in a world of many false teachers and confusion, all in heaven know the truth-- everyone in heaven is Catholic-- if because of ignorance Mrs. Hooper should find herself there, then she would also at last come home.

Hooper: The One True Church is the Body of Christ, NOT the Roman Catholic Church.

It is the same. There is no other Church in history or in current affairs that could make the claim. Catholics are united by teaching, sacraments and governance. We follow Christ, who is the invisible head of the Church while we take guidance from the successors of St. Peter, the Popes, who are the visible heads of the Church.

Hooper: Once we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, Jesus comes and lives in us and we are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and then said to be of his flesh and of his bones.

You would invalidate all the Scriptural references to the Church. It is you who do not know what it is about. The Church is more than a fellowship. It is the living sacrament of Christ's presence and power. we encounter Christ in the Church, his body, and so embrace salvation itself.

Hooper: "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." -Eph. 5:30

This statement of unity conflicts with your individualistic view just cited.

Hooper: And who is the head of this church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church? No. The head of this Church is Jesus Christ Himself.

The universal catechism also says that Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church. However, you cannot stand any level of agreement. You cannot bear the thought that you might actually have defected the true Church. Rather you silence your conscience behind all sorts of man-made rationalizations and the denial of the historical record. The are plenty of seducers out there ready to placate regrets and to assure you that the Church is a whore.

Hooper: "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things TO THE CHURCH, WHICH IS HIS BODY," -Eph. 1:23,24 (emphasis mine)

Yes, and again this is clear in the encyclical, MYSTICI CORPORIS.

Hooper: JESUS AS THE WAY, THE TRUTH & THE LIFE-- FORGOTTEN

Never forgotten, Catholicism has proclaimed Jesus as the Way and the Truth and the Life. He is the way to the Father. He is the revelation of God's face. He is the conqueror of death.

Hooper: No, they didn't forget. That's what they found out, but you didn't finish the verse, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME." -John 14:6 (Note Jesus did not say a man could only come unto the Father through the Roman Catholic Church.)

Ah, but as I have noted, the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Rejection of the Church is denial of Christ. You talk about the Church, but do not understand even the little you quote. You cite Scriptures that stress unity, and yet your personal doctrines violate this unity at every turn.

Hooper: Jesus has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church. The "church" spoken of in the Bible certainly is not the Roman Catholic Church.

Saying it does not make it so. Jesus has EVERYTHING to do with Catholicism. The Church spoken about in the Bible, and about which you give no importance, is the Catholic Church-- the precious spiritual family of our Lord.