DISCUSSION: Married or Celibate Priests, part 2

MARIA

Firstly I would just like to say how enlightening it has been reading everyones comments. I feel it is always good to see ideas and issues through others eyes. I, like Eugenia, believe that celibacy should be optional and I agree with her that anyone who feels that they have to leave Religious life or the priesthood should not be made to feel shame, but rather admired for having the integrity to leave rather than a lie. Those who stay and live lives of service to others and devotion to God whilst keeping their vows also deserve our admiration and support especially during these times when instant gratification and self serving materialism is the order of the day. So Father Joe and everyone else out there who are working hard and living the spirit of their vocations whilst exploring the concept of ministry in the modern world-Thanks for being there and know that I at least admire what you stand for.

EUGENIA

Thank you, Maria, for your email to me. I feel deeply about the Celibacy issue. That's one of the reasons why I joined the group.

Fr. Joe, While it's true that some priests are happy being celibate, some are not. Sone would never be really happy and continue in the priesthood anyway. As for the ministers you know who were once Episcopalian, etc., yes, I'm sure they feel they have too many responsibilities. But the same could be said of a doctor, anybody who is in charge of things. I believe, as always, that Celibacy should be optional and that the Church should keep up with the times.

V. M. JOSEPH

You have researched well. I find no thoughts in the list by Hans Kung a very great theologian and perhaps the architect of Vatican II. Raymond Panikkar is another great man who could enlighten us.

BENZIGER

IN HANS KUNG'S WRITINGS WE FIND

1) A PRIEST NEED NOT BE A PRIEST FOR EVER.
2) A PRIEST NEED NOT BE ONLY A CELIBATE.
3) A PRIEST NEED NOT BE ONLY A MALE PERSON.

BUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS TO GO A LONG WAY YET. ALWAYS THE MILLS OF ROME GRIND SLOW. THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH PROVES THIS.

FATHER JOE

Years ago I read Hans Kung's book THE CHURCH, but I do not remember any work focused primarily upon the priesthood. It is true that he had an influential advisorial role at Vatican II, but so did other clerics like Karol Wojtya, Karl Rahner, and others. The "mills of Rome" may move slowly but that is no guarantee that things will go the way we hope or that personal ideas will be validated by the teaching Church as true.

I actually have a book by Shri Raimundo Pannikar from Paulist Press but have to admit to not opening it. Maybe I will give it a peek? I am not sure what value Eastern religion and Hinduism should be given in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I suspect that there is more dissonance than some would like to admit.

While attempts have been made by some authorities to insist that celibacy is an intrinsic element of holy orders, the historical evidence and the recognized rites (Eastern) of Catholicism with an optional married priesthood are ample evidence that priesthood is distinct from either marriage or celibate life. Now that Episcopalians have entered Roman Catholicism, we even have a small number of married priests in the Western Church. Some have contended that this is a wedge that will force the Church to revisit the question. Maybe, but their numbers are few and many dioceses give them special duties instead of regular parish assignments with celibate priests. While even many of the most conservative (i.e. orthodox) critics could admit that the discipline of obligatory celibacy could change, the other two points are much more problematical and they seem to conflict with overwhelming precedent.

The assertion that a priest need not be a priest forever seems to run contrary to any tenet regarding a supernatural mark upon the soul and a sacramental transformation into the ministerial priesthood. The Episcopalian Church has been dealing with this topic and the Australian branch has been toying with allowing lay people to offer the Eucharistic liturgy. Orders thought suspect by Rome are now being deemed by some Episcopalians themselves as institutions of no consequence. The Jews of old practiced a transitory priesthood where they offered sacrifice at assigned times in the Temple. During these times, the men abstained from sexual activity. However, the Church's reflection upon her ministries has given us the insight that ministerial priests participate in the one priesthood of Christ. There is evidence that periodic abstinence was also practiced by Christian priests, but following the pattern of Jesus and St. Paul, a preference developed for celibacy. The fact that worship was no longer restrained to Sundays but became daily also had a part to play in the equation. Single-hearted love became an ideal (particularly in the monastic model) where a perpetual priesthood could regularly re-present the oblation of Christ.

It is a misnomer when we speak about the "laicization" of priests. The matter is canonical, but not reckoned as sacramental. A man is returned to the lay state in terms of Church law, and he may even be released from his vow or promise of celibacy (a separate procedure), but Church doctrine maintains that he remains ontologically a priest. While marriage ends with death, once a man is a priest, he is deemed a priest forever-- on earth, in heaven, and even in hell.

As for the gender of a priest, I suspect that the movement for married priests has done much damage to itself by adopting other agenda items like women priests. This has caused many churchmen sympathetic to calls for a relaxation of the discipline requiring celibacy to dismiss the matter and to distance themselves from such advocates.

It is troubling that in the "women priests" debate that gender is often reduced to an accidental like hair color or race while it actually reaches deep into our core identity. The witness of Christ and the Church, the iconic value of Christ's humanity and manhood, the participation of a minister "in the person of Christ as head of the Church", the Scriptural bridal imagery, and the limits of revelation must all be given critical weight regarding this question.

Anyhow, these are just a few quick thoughts. I have to go back to work. Too bad that spammers and advertisers have jammed this message board with their nonsense, it makes it harder to follow legitimate posts.

Peace

MARIA

I would agree that linking the movement for the relaxation of the celibacy requirement with the movement for the ordination of women is a mistake in that it does alienate some who would support the former but can find no scriptural or traditional beasis for the latter. However I think there is a definate connection between the Churchs attitude to women and its approach to sexuality and priestly celibacy in particular. Many of the laws and tradition relating to human sexuality seem to have evolved during the period of history in which women were thought no only to be inferior but also to be avoided at all costs, (except of course for procreation.) This deep seated mistrust of women has remained as a institutional flaw right up to the present day and it goes some way to explain the reluctance of the exclusivly male hierachy to discuss the issues. I would also suggest that the Church during its earlier centuries was tainted by ideas of ritual purity practised in many of the sects based on the greek mysyery religions and later infiltrated by ideas similar to those of Arien dualism.

FATHER JOE

It is somewhat ironic that Pope John Paul II has taken much heat about the Church's view of women and human sexuality, given that as a young cleric and bishop his views were considered revolutionary and progressive. Hardliners even held him as suspect. As Maria says, there were many voices in the Church that reduced women to baby-making machines and criticized sexual intercourse, even in marriage, as a necessary evil. The Church placed a great stress upon "proles" or procreation; however, the Holy Father has stressed that "fides" is no less important. Thus, the joy and intimacy of the marital union should suffer no negative stigma, even if age and health prevents the conception of children. The Pope and his supporters speak about it as a wonderful self-offering, an expression of unity. He would denote it as an ocassion of grace and an element of lay spirituality. Many young adults and couples were attracted to him because of these views, and his high esteem of women and their contribution to the society and the Church.

Admittedly, as a son of Poland, he has inherited and promotes a very traditional view of faith; nevertheless, he has advanced Church thinking on such matters way beyond what previous Popes allowed. A host of saints from the laity have been elevated by the Holy Father, like the heroic Gianna Beretta Molla.

If you remember what the Church was like in the 1950's, only half a century ago, I think you would have to confess that the Church has endured a revolution. We have embraced more change in these five decades than in in the previous thousand years. That hardly seems slow to me. We are not better off for all the changes either.

No matter what the structure of the Church, or how restrictive, there were always some women who were able to excel. Joan of Arc, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Hildegaard de Bingen, Claire, etc. are remembered even today. Teresa of Avila, along with John of the Cross, helped to save the Church in her time. There were also powerful women like Queen Isabella of Spain.

Pope Pius XII was particular appreciative of women, and was considered a bit of a "mother's boy", living at home even during seminary instruction and then under the influence of the so-called Popessa, a nun that was resented by the Curia because of her pull with the Pope.

Today a handful of women are involved with the Vatican bureacracy (yes, they should have more of a presence), and women are deeply involved with the Church on the grass level. They are often in the majority among Parish Council membership, readers, extraordinary ministers, catechists, DREs, choirs, office staff, in the pews, etc. Indeed, in my diocese a woman lawyer is the Chancellor. Women are making inroads, and in Church terms, at lightening speed.

Critics may not be satisfied because they fail to appreciate the gains made and are anxious for more. There may also be the dilemma that some things will never change because the Church will deem it outside her jurisdiction to make those changes-- regarding points of revelation, natural law, and divine positive law.

As I stated in my earlier post, ritual purity was not simply something seen in the Greek Mystery Religions, but was also an element of Judaism eventually adopted into Christian thinking. I would argue that the Church did more to Christianize existing structures and philosophy than any kind of detrimental Hellinization to the Church herself (as Harnack contends).

What are the ideas of Arian dualism that you mention? As I recall, the Arians contended regarding Jesus "that there was a then, when he was not." In otherwords, Jesus was not viewed as truly God but more as a creature in the equation-- dare we say like a Platonic demiurge?

Peace!

MARIA

Very much enjoyed reading your post again Joe,you are of course much more knowledgeble about these things than I am,so it is good to read the views of someone who knows what they are talking about. I am afaid I wrote my last post in rather a hurry, consequently I managed to mix up my heresies. I meant to refer to Manichaeanism and its later incarnation as practised by the cathars. I may be mistaken but I thought the ideas behind these movements, put simply, was that the body and spirit were in conflict because there were two gods, a good God and a bad one (who we would perhaps refer to as the Devil) and it was the bad god who was responsible for material creation; Thus the world and the body would be seen as intrinsically evil. I would also like to point out that there are a great many women at the grass roots level of the Church but my experience, at least here in England, is that they are mainly in positions which involve arranging flowers and making coffee. Whilst these activities and the like are of course to be valued,they are not exactly positions of power. I am also quite sure that most of the women employed in the Vatican are there doing low level secretarial jobs. How ever many times we as women are told we are equally valued as human beings within the Church it somehow doesnt stop me feeling that we are not.but thats just a subjective view and maybe things are a lot different in the United States. Just a quick final word to ask everyone to continue to pray for me in relation to the other issue mentioned in previous posts.

FATHER JOE

Correction noted, and again, many prayers for your situation, Maria.

Peace

National Catholic Reporter
Issue Date: May 7, 2004

Sister named to high-level Vatican post
Some see appointment as attempt to open doors to women
By JOHN L. ALLEN JR. (Rome)

In a historic breakthrough, a woman has been named to one of the top three positions in a congregation, the most powerful type of Vatican office. The move could defy conventional wisdom under John Paul II that because congregations exercise ecclesiastical power in the name of the pope, their top officials must be clergy.

Vatican-watchers say the appointment could also have broad implications for the role of women in the church, especially taken in tandem with other recent "firsts" -- the appointment of two women to the International Theological Commission and a woman to head a pontifical academy.

On April 24, John Paul II named Salesian Sr. Enrica Rosanna, a 65-year-old Italian, as undersecretary of the Congregation for the Institutes of Consecrated Life and the Societies of Apostolic Life. The office is commonly known as the "Congregation for Religious," and it has responsibility for the 140,000 religious order priests in the world, 55,000 brothers and 800,000 sisters.

Among other things, Rosanna will now have authority over a staff of 30, including some 15 priests.

Rosanna told NCR April 25 that she hopes to bring "a distinctively feminine way of seeing things" to her work.

Women religious have responded positively to the news.

The Roman curia is composed of three types of offices: congregations, tribunals and councils. Because the congregations exercise what is known as "jurisdiction," meaning the power to issue binding decisions that draw upon the pope's own delegated authority, they have long been regarded as "first among equals" in the Vatican. Each has three superiors: the prefect (a cardinal), a secretary (usually an archbishop), and at least one undersecretary (usually a monsignor).

The previous undersecretary was the signatory on official documents such as indults, releasing religious from solemn vows, a seemingly clear exericise of jurisdiction. Rosanna told NCR April 25, however, that her tasks have not yet been defined.

Noted American canonist Fr. Ladislas Orsy told NCR April 26 that an undersecretary is often not involved in jurisdiction, so Rosanna's appointment does not necessarily mean a reversal of policy. "Psychologically and socially, however, the move is significant and for the better," Orsy said, "because the undersecretary is a major official and the appointment of a lay person, a woman in this case, has no recent precedent and may have an impact that we cannot foresee."

Rosanna's nomination comes on the heels of the March 6 appointments of American Sr. Sara Butler of the Missionary Servants of the Most Blessed Trinity, and German laywoman Barbara Hallensleben to the International Theological Commission, plus the March 9 nomination of Harvard law professor Mary Ann Glendon as president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences. In both cases, it was the first time women have been selected for those roles.

Taken cumulatively, some observers see these nominations as an attempt to reshape the sociology of the Vatican, opening doors to women's participation in roles that do not require ordination.

Rosanna is a professor at both the Auxilium, a pontifical institute on education, and the Claretianum, an institute on consecrated life. John Paul has previously named her an auditor at three Synods of Bishops: on consecrated life in 1994, on Europe in 1999, and on the episcopacy in 2001. She has served as a consultor to the Congregation for Catholic Education and the Congregation for the Institutes of Consecrated Life and the Societies of Apostolic Life.

MARIA

The post Vatican 2 Church is of course very different to what it was prior to the Council.However, I think I am right in saying that Paul VI totally ignored the majority of theological advisers on the two very crucial issues of Priestly celiibacy and birth control. The two documents concerned with these issues; Sacerdotalis Caelibatus (1967) and Humanae Vitae (1968) placed the teachings of the Church profoundly at odds with the prevailing feelings of a large percentage of loyal Catholics. I would suggest that they also resulted in a loss of credibility on issues of sexual morality in general.

However many intellectual ideas there are around the issues surrounding Priestly celibacy. I have to admit that one of my main objections is, on the face of it,a subjective one. Celibacy seems, in many cases to erect an invisable barrier between the Priest and the often more than fifty percent of his congregation who are female. I and other female friends have noted many times over the years that on occasions when we have needed the urgent pastoral or spiritual help of Parish Priests we have come running into this unseen wall which many ordained men seem to feel the need to build around themselves to protect their chastity. For example,when male parishoners are assailed by some urgent crisis and feel the need of advise of a spiritual nature,they can just knock on the presbytery door and are greeted with an invitation to step right in,have a drink and open their hearts. Unfortunately, I have spoken to many women in similar crisis who have been left standing in drafty halls or if they are really unlucky on doorsteps and been requested to return at a later date when an appropriate guardian i.e the secretary or housekeeper is present. When anyone (male or female) is truly commited to a chaste and celibate life for God they should be mature enough to live out their vocation without erecting either physical or psychological barriaers that do nothing except prevent them from living a truly Christian life of charity and service to all. Celibacy, like any other spiritual discipline can be practised purely as an excercise of human willpower, when this is the case the priest can not reconcile himself to his humanity or serve all his people in a truly Christ like way. By letting go of some of the concern for outward good form and putting himself in the hands of the spirit I would suggest that he can then allow his humanity to show through the persona of the cleric that many men bind there own God given humanity within. One of the arguements often put forward for Priesly celibacy is that a man unencumbered by wife and family can be totally available to his flock. Again in theory this is a great ideal, and many men have through the centuries lived such lives of selfless devotion. However,my own and others experiences of parish priests have often been such that the reality does not live up to the ideal. In the worse cases not being directly responsible to another special individual produces men who are self centered and overly obsessed by their material comforts. I recognise that there are in every parish damaged women who having been helped in some small way by their parish Priest go on to believe him to be the answer to all there problems and can go on to make the mans life very difficult,but I can not help feeling that too many celibate male priests fall into the error of seeing all women as potential seducers. By seeing women in these terms they can not but fail in their duty of Christian care to the women in their congregations and become little more than inapproachable and distant figures of authority. One of the primary solutions to the problems outlined above is a re-assesment of the approach to the education of priests, more female teachers in the seminaries would be a good start. Also, some of the priests I know personally tell me that much of the seminary education was concerned with dogmatic theology and little emphasis was put on helping them in their life of prayer or listening to the spirit, perhaps if this is still the case it might be a good time to look at what is really important in the formation of young men to the priesthood.

Well, I did warn everyone that it was going to be a some what subjective view and if anyone reading the above feels that I have been to harsh I am truly sorry it is not my intention to suggest that all priests are failing their female parishoners, but I am afraid that some are and I am quite sure that this is not because they are bad people, but rather because they are caught up in a system that values purity above compassion.

EUGENIA

Maria, I agree with what you say. Yes, priestly celibacy is, for the most part, something that we object to on a subjective level. And yes, there is a difference between the way women and men paridhioners are treated.

MARIA

I am very glad that you agree with me Eugenia, I have over the years spoken to many women whose feelings I have tried to sumo up in this posting. I do believe strongly that celibacy (or chastity to be more precise) has its place in Gods Church. But I do not believe that the charism of chastity is always given and a true priestly vocation can excist without a parrellel vocation to celibacy. I also can not help feeling that those priests who get involved with relationships with women tend to come out the other end much more mature and compassionate human beings.It seems a great pity to me that these illicit relationships (my own included) instead of being torn apart when they are discovered are not gently encouraged to turn from ones based on physical intimacy to being based on spiritual understanding and support.

ROSANNE

I have been on this list for some years but have never posted before because I was very disappointed that the issues that the list was set up for were never discussed. So I am very grateful to you Maria for starting this discussion and to all the others who have joined in and offered such well considered views. I have to say I am in total agreement with pretty much everything Maria has said and I wish you a holy and happy resolution to your dilemma, a situation which should never have occurred if the Church had recognised that the imposition of obligatory celibacy is cruel and unnecessary.

"Well, I did warn everyone that it was going to be a some what subjective view and if anyone reading the above feels that I have been to harsh I am truly sorry it is not my intention to suggest that all priests are failing their female parishoners, but I am afraid that some are and I am quite sure that this is not because they are bad people,but rather because they are caught up in a system that values purity above compassion."

No, you are not harsh, you are speaking the truth plainly and honestly and there should be more of that! I do think that younger priests are less affected by the things you have talked out than those who were trained before Vatican 2. I was 24 when I fell in love with the first priest who captured my heart back in 1971. He was 20 years older and told me they had been trained never to be alone with a woman and it that were unavoidable to make sure there was always a table between the priest and the woman. I doubt such counsels would be given in this day and age, at least I certainly hope not! I have often been drawn to priests as the kind of man I love is intelligent, gentle and deeply spiritual - a description that would fit many priests and not so many men "in the world".

I could say a lot more but at this time will leave it at this: celibacy is not essential to holiness and should not be a prerequisite for the clergy. Obviously, it may be appropriate for those in religious orders but a secular priest should be free to choose. All the energy he puts into denying his healthy and God given urges for intimacy and partnership with a woman could then be returned to service for the people of God. And here's a new idea - his wife could help in that as well! The former Anglican (Episcopalian) priests who have converted to Rome while married with families do fine - their colleagues must not be denied the same freedom to enjoy the special experience of God that comes in a sanctified Christian marriage.

Love

FATHER JOE

The Majority Report recommended a change in the teaching regarding artificial contraception and its prohibition. However, the Minority Report which became the basis for Humanae Vitae did a better job in respecting tradition, the Church's perennial philosophy regarding personhood, a Christian view of conjugal relations and human life, and past authoritative statements. It is true that many theologians and ethicists thought that there might be a change because of the pill, since it mimicked a woman's hormonal cycles. But, even the Majority report would not have permitted all forms of birth control. Obviously, the Church is not a strict democracy and even a majority of so-called experts may not be right on any given issue. As for the "sensus fidelium" of God's people, it only applies to Catholics who offer religious assent to legitimate authority (even on questions where there is some mutability); who practice their faith regularly and keep the precepts of the Church; and who are in solidarity with the universal Church, both on earth and among the saints who have gone before us. The development and research into natural family planning has also changed the dynamics of this question today where there is a legitimate option for family planning within the Catholic moral framework.

Back in 1967 when Sacerdotalis Caelibatus was released, polls showed that a large "global" majority preferred the retention of priestly celibacy in the Western Church. Even today, the numbers questioned on this issue are largely different between Catholics in the pews on Sunday and those who have defected or are irregular in their practice. While many men left the active priesthood in the 1960's and 70's, the numbers today are fairly low. Vocations are also starting to show a turn around, especially from strongly traditional and religious families.

I discussed the matter of optional celibacy with a well-placed canonist a few years ago and he claimed that even if such became the practice of the Church again, it would not be retroactive. Thus, men who have vowed celibacy would be required to keep their promise. Men who have left the ministry to get married would not be invited back. However, their children and other new candidates would have such a choice. Further, it would follow the Orthodox and not the Anglican model.

Men would have to marry women who share their faith (Catholic) and do so BEFORE ordination to the diaconate.

The spouse would also have to give consent to the ordination and express a willingness to support the priest in his ministry. If she objects, just as with permanent deacons, the men would be released from the program of formation. If their spouse should die, they would NOT be allowed to remarry—the same regulation that governs our permanent deacons.

CAIT

On Oct 26, 2004, at 10:30 PM, Rosanne Parker wrote:

"I have been on this list for some years but have never posted before because I was very disappointed that the issues that the list was set up for were never discussed."

I agree about the issues for which this list was formed never being discussed. KEPHAS was begun for married deacons to discuss their desire for ordination to priesthood! It's rare that is addressed anymore.

" One of the arguements often put forward for Priesly celibacy is that a man unencumbered by wife and family can be totally available to his flock. Again in theory this is a great ideal, and many men have through the centuries lived such lives of selfless devotion."

As an option, this might be as holy as married priesthood, but as a mandate or "ideal" it is a slap in the face to 2000 years of Apostolic Tradition maintained in Orthodoxy and most Roman Catholic Rites other than Latin (or Eastern in the USA). IMO, it's a power and control issue far more than some spiritual ideal which would need no mandate whatsoever. Those Orthodox priests who are called to celibacy need no mandate, so why would Latin Rite priests if it is not simply about control?

FATHER JOE

MARIA: "Unfortunately, I have spoken to many women in similar crisis who have been left standing in drafty halls or if they are really unlucky on doorsteps and been requested to return at a later date when an appropriate guardian i.e. the secretary or housekeeper is present."

Comment:

Seriously, has this been your experience and that of friends? Goodness, I am sorry about that. Are you sure it is not a cultural thing? It has never been my practice to treat people like that. My concern these days is not with women but with children. Given the scandals, priests are required these days to make sure a parent or another adult is nearby when we counsel children. As for adult men and women, it is my practice to treat them both with generosity and respect. I may even be a bit of an old fashioned chauvinist in the deference I give women, who so often constitute the majority of our congregations and volunteers.

I live in a poor one-man parish. I have a part-time secretary who has been out months for medical reasons. There is no other staff. The situation you enumerate would force priests like me to become hermits. That would never do.

Why would guys be so circumspect regarding women?

Not everyone who comes to see a priest is well. I have known priests who were pursued by women or who had charges of solicitation or harassment against them. They were alone, and there were no witnesses to say otherwise. Priests who have been burned or dioceses that have faced lawsuits may have set barriers because of this that some of us would question.

Priests are also men—good, not so good, strong, and weak. Some of these guys do have real problems in sexuality that cause them to be fearful of the slightest temptation. This is not simply a problem of celibate males. Lutheran ministers in the United States are increasingly divorced and remarried. Scandals are sometimes involved. Many were the result of adulterous relationships with parishioners. I know some men who flirt with ever woman they see, even though they are married.

None of this excuses bad manners. But, let me speak from the heart about this. It is important for the celibate priest to have male and female friends. However, speaking frankly, the situation with women always requires diligence, especially when the women are real soul mates. There is no woman as attractive to a priest as the lady who is devout in her prayers and supportive of his ministry. The issue of gay men aside, such a woman represents the ideal that a celibate priest would have sought out had he not been ordained. The question here is not, "what if he falls in love?" No, the real question is "what will he do when he falls in love?" Given time and exposure in ministry, the priest will fall in love; indeed, he may fall in love several times before God calls him home.

What will he do when he falls in love? Sometimes love means embracing, but for the man who lives a vowed life, it also means refraining from embracing. I will not judge men who have fallen in love and have left ministry. My respect is profound for the couples who have lived a chaste life until the laicization and their marriage in the Church. However, I will question any form of self-deception and dishonesty to the woman involved and to the rest of the believing community. A man cannot be a good priest and keep a mistress on the side. If he really loves her then he would not live a lie. It upsets me that men who are called to minister the sacraments and forgive sins would participate in acts, no matter how touching and intimate, that would place themselves and another in serious sin. I am fearful that a few priests are not really good and that they "use" women in a selfish way. But, most men I know are above reproach.

When a priest falls in love—and we all do—the proper response may be distance. This is no insinuation that the woman is bad or a dangerous temptress; it is an acknowledgment of a fallen human nature. The dynamic of love is also involved—love always cries out for unity. Add the ingredient of passion, and there could be an explosive situation.

Regardless as to how one feels about celibate and married priests, the priest in the West today makes a promise of celibacy. He did not have to do this. He could have opted to be a deacon later in life or have chosen another way to work and serve the Church. How can we tell married couples to keep their promises if we as priests do not keep ours?

A priest falls in love with a woman and he places her welfare ahead of his own. He wants her to be happy and holy. He wants her to remain in good standing with the Church. He loves her more than his own life and he would walk through fire for her. He backs away. It is the hardest thing he has ever done. He cries into his pillow at night and loses weight. He is sick at heart but he knows it is for the best. She will move on with her life and maybe marry another. He might even perform the wedding, quickly wiping a tear from his eye that escapes him. His happiness is her happiness. He will always love her. Never a day will pass that he does not pray for her. A piece of his heart will always belong to her. He will baptize her babies, dismissing from his imagination all of the "what ifs". It may also be that he will never see her again. It might be too hard to be her friend and always want more. He becomes a real sign of contradiction and the wounded healer. He joins his experience with the passion of Christ. He is a priest forever.

Well, those are my few thoughts. I wonder if we live in a worldwide society where single, celibate and married people are not as mature and informed as they should be about such things? The fact that so many marriages fail is evidence that there is something wrong in many camps.

Thank you for the opportunity to share a few thoughts. I suspect that a number of the people who come to this site (spammers excluded) seek not only answers but support and consolation. Please know that while you may not agree with much that I say, you have my prayers and respect.

Even the Orthodox churches make a clear distinction between celibate and married priests.

Only celibate priests are eligible to be bishops.

There is no denying that the question is complex. The history gives us a mixture of spiritual and temporal arguments. In the West, several come to mind:
The success and high caliber of men in monastic circles.Imitating Jesus the High Priest of Christianity. The preference given by St. Paul to celibacy. Special sign of contradiction and sign of the kingdom to come. Single-hearted devotion to ministry and love of God. Tradition of periodic abstinence in Jewish priesthood. Protected church properties from claims of heirs. Scandal of broken marriages eliminated. Men could be reassigned anywhere without family concerns. Men belong wholly to the Church. Discouraged many undisciplined candidates. Celibacy did not preserve the situation from abuse. Scandal is not a new matter. However, I still see celibacy as a gift that God will give a man who really wants to be a priest in the West. At least that ahs been my experience. This does not mean that it is easy or that the sacrifices are not real.

In another post you said this site was established to discuss the ordination to priesthood of married deacons.

Some of us have thought for awhile that men who have proven themselves, and who are mature in years, might be good candidates to move from the diaconate to the priesthood. The permanent deacon program in my diocese is a five year program and many of the men are more traditional in thinking than a majority of the priests.

The question of marriage aside, we have had a number of single and widowed deacons who have advanced to the priesthood. One guy (again a widower) had his five children in the front row of the cathedral when he was ordained a priest. Another man had never married but took care of his mother until she died. A deacon for many years, he has proven an outstanding priest.

Peace