DISCUSSION: Married or Celibate Priests, part 1

MARIA

It seems to me that this group [KEPHAS Message Board & Email List] is being taken over by people who are either trying to sell things or are trying to get members to visit commercial websites. This is a great shame because I'm sure there must be people out there who are genuinly interested in the issues involved . I would personally be very greatfull to read some postings from men who have succesfully made the transition from the active catholic ministry to marriage or maybe just a happy non celibate single life. I am reluctant to say to much about my own situation accept that I have been involved with a priest for a number of years and that we have a child together, I have never pressed him to leave but I do feel that it would be comforting for him to be able to read any postings from men who have made the transition to civvy steet, to coin a military phrase, without loosing their spiritual integrity.

FATHER JOE

It is unfortunate that the site seems to have been hijacked. I would hope that the moderator would delete the spam invaders.

I am afraid that I cannot give any comfort to you or your priest friend other than to say that I will keep you both in my prayers. It is not a satisfactory situation for a priest to feign celibacy in ministry while having a secret relationship with a woman, no matter how much they love each other. It may be hard for the priest, but I suspect that this business also takes you to the cross.

It is not fair to you. If a priest loves a woman, and particularly if he has started a family with her, I think the situation is overdue for a decisive turning-point. Since it is unlikely that the rule of celibacy will be relaxed any time soon, he only has two honest roads: remain in ministry and break off the relationship or
leave ministry and seek laicization so that he can marry you.

In such situations, obligations for the financial support of any children would remain. If the former route is chosen, the priest will have to live with the fact that he hurt a woman dear to him and that he has deprived children of the affection and love of their father. It is a tragic business.

If he really loves you and wants to be with you, then he should not keep his affection for you in the shadows like something he is ashamed about. He should then bite the bullet, see his bishop, seek personal and financial guidance, and bring the business into the light. Dioceses sometimes help priests in retraining for secular work so that they can make a suitable transition to a lay state.

Anyhow those are my quick thoughts. I wish you the best.

BENZIGER

I FULLY AGREE WITH FR JOE. JESUS IS AGAINST ANYTHING THAT WHICH IS DISHONEST AND PHARISEICAL." BELOVED FOLLOW NOT THAT WHICH IS EVIL,BUT THAT WHICH IS GOOD" (3 John 1-11).

MARIA

Fr. Joe you've just told me what I needed to hear but didn't want to accept and you've managed to do so in a compassionate and non judgmental way. I know I've got to extricate myself from this relationship for the sake of my emotional and spiritual health. Right now I feel so confused and isolated about this that I dont know where to start. Anyway many thanks for bothering to point out the truth to me and please continue to pray for us both.

EUGENIA

Maria, What relationship is this? I knew nothing about it.

FATHER JOE

These matters can get so out of hand. Several years ago I remember the bishop telling us that a young priest had fathered a child and that the diocese had reassigned him while pledging regular financial support for the woman and her baby. Those present seemed to resent the potential scandal and how much it would cost the Church; I had to shake my head that no one sympathized for the woman since she had suffered abandonment when she most needed the man she loved.

You have immeasureable value and the good Lord would not want you victimized by anyone. Find strength in God and seek out a relationship where there is no fear or dishonesty.

Many blessings--

BENZIGER

NOTHING IS NEW.NOTHING IS SHOCKING.THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS GONE TO DOGS. 90 % of the Catholic priests lead a double sinful life, saying daily Mass blunting their consciences. Did Jesus preach all these? The Catholic Church is stinking.Millions of such dirty and filthy stories-rather lives being lived-in all the dioceses of all the countries of the world.The laity is cheated and exploited.

The laity is asked to PAY, PRAY AND OBEY.

CLOSE YOUR EYES TO THE SINS AND CRIMES OF PRIESTS.

THE PRIESTS WILL ENJOY SECRET SEX AND CELEBRATE DAILY MASS SANCTIMONIOUSLY.

THE LAY MAN HAS TO KNEEL DOWN BEFORE HIM AND RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION.

KNEEL DOWN AND MAKE CONFESSION.

OH WHAT A MOCKERY AND WHAT A TRAGEDY.

OH WHAT A GREAT GLORY TO THE CHURCH. WHICH IS IMPORTANT?

THE MASS OR THE MASS STIPEND? SHAME SHAME

FATHER JOE

I would suspect that the 90% is too high. There are problems for sure, and even one person living a lie is too many. Scandals in the States have centered around the abuse of young people by clergy. However, the overall problem is complex.

Few cases of misconduct represent true pedophilia but seem to signify pederasty (older teens). Despite the nay-sayers, the incidence of homosexual activity represents the majority of these cases. Further, while some ordained men have had unlawful relationships with women, the more prevalent silent rebellion seems to involve homosexual liasons. Given that society and the media are very sympathetic to same-sex relationships, there seems a conspiracy to restrain the news in this regard.

As a seminarian I was propositioned once by a priest and later by another cleric after ordination. I do not know how these guys live with themselves.

I must add the corrective that most priests I know seem to be faithful to their commitment to the Lord and the Church. Celibacy is a lifestyle that I prize for myself and like so many of my friends, we are happy. That does not mean that there are not some women who gently tug at the heart-strings of the soul, but we remain faithful to promises made all the same. What makes it possible for me?

1. DAILY MASS - This allows us to participate in the greatest love story ever told, the sacrifice of Christ and the wedding banquet of the Lamb.

2. FREQUENT PRAYER - The psalms were the prayers of Jesus and so also they constitute esential prayers of faith. The breviary, rosary, meditation, etc. are hallmarks of my life. Without such dialogue with God, I doubt that priestly life would be possible.

3. MINISTRY - My parishioners mean everything to me. Their joys and sorrows are my own. They are truly my family. I love them.

When I was a boy I came from a very poor family. We had very little money to place in the church offertory. Nevertheless, even if it was the "widow's mite", I believed that these gifts represented us-- our self offering. Just as the bread and wine became the body and blood of Jesus, I prayed that God would make me more and more like his Son. I still see the Mass and Christian life in terms of sacrifice, repentance, and conversion. I told the Lord, one day I would give myself to him-- all that I really had to give. A number of years later, I kept that pledge and became a priest.

We need to honestly recognize problems but we should not become so cynical as to condemn good men or the vital ministry of the Church. A pretense at holiness is indeed sanctimonious. However, holiness is not a sham if we practice humility. Everything we have is a gift from God. What is given as a gift, must be returned as a gift.

Peace and abundant blessings--

MARIA

I would agree that the 90% figure mentioned in a previous post is obviously an exageration. However,whilst recognising that Fr. Joe seems to be from his postings, a sincere and spiritual man as well as a priest with real integrity, I do not believe that the actual figures behind these stories of priests involved with women are quite as low as seems to be suggested. I would refer to Richard Sipes research which seems to me to suggest that a figure close to 50% of celibate Catholic clergy are involved in some form of sexual practice. There is no doubt that a celibate life lived with the help of the spirit and committed to by an adult who can fully grasp exactly what they are sacrificing can be fulfilling for the individual concerned and a great gift to the community. Many young men who entered seminaries in earlier years had not reached the level of awarness that allowed them to understand celibacy as a positive choice and I feel this is why some priests today can not find it in them selves to always honour their vows. I think that its good for us all to remember the rather cliched phrase that we should hate the sin and love the sinner as with most cliches it holds a large degree of truth. Please continue to remember me in all your prayers.

EUGENIA

Hello, Maria/all members, I, for one, think that thefigure is low,very low, and that celibacy is outmoded. It's not healthy and it's just not right.

RAS

As a priest who believes the time has long past for the Church to change, your allegations about 90% of us leading lives of lies is outrageous and I think you owe an apology to those of us who do struggle to keep our vows (and I think that is the majority of us!).

In the beginning God created "Man" and gave him a companion a "Woman". In the plan of God human beings are ordained to live as man and wife. They compliment each other. I can not find any where to prove that celibacy is a great sacrificing virtue to be practiced. God does not demand it. Marriage is divine and celibacy in the church is a human law.It is just a "discipline" not a virtue.I wonder if we can please God more by being celibates or its need in the present world.

Why don't you take a vow to starve.

V. M. JOSEPH

I do not believe that the actual figures behind these stories of priests involved with women are quite as low as seems to be suggested. I would refer to Richard Sipes research which seems to me to suggest that a figure close to 50% of celibate Catholic clergy are involved in some form of sexual practice. There is no doubt that a celibate life lived with the help of the spirit and committed to by an adult who can fully grasp exactly what they are sacrificing can be fulfilling for the individual concerned and a great gift to the community. Many young men who entered seminaries in earlier years had not reached the level of awareness that allowed them to understand celibacy as a positive choice and I feel this is why some priests today can not find it in them selves to always honour their vows.I think that its good for us all to remember the rather cliched phrase that we should hate the sin and love the sinner as with most cliches it holds a large degree of truth. Please continue to remember me in all your prayers.

MARIA

If by stating Why dont you take a vow to Starve you are comparing the basic human need to eat with the need to engage in sexual activity I would suggest that this is a little bit silly, whilst people deprived of food would of course die as far as I know know one has ever died due to being deprived of sex! I think my position on the issue of mandatory celibacy as a nessecary demand to anyone wishing to enter the priesthood has been made quite clear else where.I do feel that to say that God made both sexes and therefore celibacy is by nature wrong is being a little simplistic. Many people feel that celibacy is a charism, a gift from the spirit. A world that had not been touched by the many thousands of men and women who willingly gave up their chances of family life throughout history in the name of God and in service to their community would I think be a much poorer place.

EUGENIA

Maria, I, for one, do not think that celibacy is for all. It's not a one size fits all type of thing. Some people think that they can do it and then find out they can't. Some leave, some stay out of duty, etc. I think that celibacy should be optional and that there shouldn't be any sort of shame involved if a priest or
nun find they want to leave the Church. There are other ways of serving God.

MIKE

You interchangeably use sex and sexuality. Sex is onlyan expresssion of sexuality. What must be reformed arethe seminaary structures that promote misogony andrepress sexual development. Sexuality and sex areabout the how we enter into relationship with theCreator and creatures. Also, the priesthood is a calling. God calls a man toordination. The man who calls himself will only harmhimself and the people of God.

FATHER JOE

V. M. Joseph makes the point that celibacy is a "human law" and certainly it is regarded as a discipline of the Church in the West. As for the statement, "Why don't you take a vow to starve," I hesitate to comment. Perhaps it is enough to echo Maria who astutely observes: "If by stating `Why don't you take a vow to Starve' you are comparing the basic human need to eat with the need to engage in sexual activity I would suggest that this is a little bit silly, whilst people deprived of food would of course die as far as I know no one has ever died due to being deprived of sex!"

I have friends who left the seminary and others departed ministry. Some of them are married, most sought laicization and the regularization of their marriages. They seem happy, for the most part, although a few had trouble in their relationships and have suffered divorce. I guess they thought marriage and a family would resolve issues of sexuality and intimacy. It is not always the case. I have learned to be suspicious of simple answers to the matter of priesthood, the reasons why men leave, and the issue of personal development. My view, for what it is worth, is that there are many areas of concern and that they vary from priest to priest.

What troubles me most is the refusal of some critics to accept that there are many celibate priests who are happy and well adjusted. In my diocese we have three or four priests who came from the Episcopal Church and are married with families. They work alongside celibate priests and seem to do okay, although one of them admitted to me that balancing his time between work, prayer, and family is often difficult.

Lately with the pedophile crisis, I have studied a whole series of books, some better than others, most with a particular spin or agenda. While some of them are disappointing, I keep investigating the matter and the topic of priestly identity, not only to understand my vocation better, but to try to grasp the challenges to vocations and ministry today. Some of the more wild books and ideas do not reflect my experience. While there are common elements, there seems to be several models of priestly life today. If it is of interest to anyone, here are some of the books, although I must warn that I think some of them skew the facts somewhat.

Here are the titles read and made part of my library:

Sex, Priests & Power: Anatomy of a Crisis by A. W. Richard Sipe

A Secret World: Sexuality & the Search for Celibacy by A. W. Richard Sipe

A People Adrift: Crisis of the Roman Catholic Church in America by Peter Steinfels

Our Fathers: The Secret Life of the Catholic Church in an Age of Scandal by David France

The Other Side of the Altar: One Man's Life in the Catholic Priesthood by Paul E. Dinter

Amchurch Comes Out: U.S. Bishops, Pedophile Scandals & the Homosexual Agenda by Paul Likoudis

Shaken By Scandals: Catholics Speak Out About Priests' Sexual Abuse by Paul Thigpen

Lead Us Not into Temptation: Catholic Priests & the Sexual Abuse of Children by Jason Berry

The Liberation of the Laity: In Search of an Accountable Church by Paul Lakeland

Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis by Philip Jenkins

Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality & the Catholic Church by Uta Ranke-Heinnemann

The Unhealed Wound: The Church & Human Sexuality by Eugene Kennedy

Women in the Priesthood by Dr. Manfred Hauke

The Coming Catholic Church: How the Faithful are Shaping a New American Catholicism by David Gibson

The Priestly Office: A Theological Reflection by Avery Dulles, S.J.

Why I Am a Priest: 30 Success Stories ed. By Lawrence Boadt & Michael J. Hunt

The First Five Years of the Priesthood by Dean R. Hoge

Betrayal: The Crisis in the Catholic Church by Boston Globe

The Theology of Priesthood ed. by Donald J. Goergen & Ann Garrido

Priests: An Inside Look by Rev. John P. Mack, Jr.

Priesthood in the Modern World ed. By Karen Sue Smith

Quickening the Fire in Our Midst: Challenge of Diocesan Priestly Spirituality by George A. Aschenbrenner, S.J.

The Changing Face of the Priesthood by Donald B. Cozzens

Priests are People, Too! By Thomas M. Kane

The Priesthood by Karl Rahner

The Priesthood of Christ & His Ministers by Andre Feuillet

The Priesthood by Rev. Wilhelm Stockums, D.D.

Priesthood Imperiled: A Critical Examination of Ministry in the Catholic Church by Bernard Haring

The Changing Priesthood by Paul E. Dinter

Journey into Priesthood by Michael Sharkey

The Christian Priesthood ed. By N. Lash & J Rhymer

What Are We At? – Ministry & Priesthood for the Third Millenium by Michael Casey

Extraordinary Lives: 34 Priests Tell Their Stories by Francis P. Friedl & Rex Reynolds

The True Priest by Cardinal Michele Pellegrino

Faith, Hope & Chastity ed. By Carolyn Butler

Women and the Priesthood ed. by Thomas Hopko